Control|24 and ProControl with Pro Tools 11?

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by Brahamnesik

I just wanted to say that even if it seems useless, people have the right to discuss things and share thoughts on forums.

Just out of curiosity, anyone is willing to invest in the new S6 control surface system?

Just out of curiosity, anyone is willing to invest in the new S6 control surface system?

Absolutely...assuming, of course, that tonight's Mega Millions numbers are 11...13...14...

[Tweakhead]

I had an opportunity yesterday to recommend a control surface to a client who is putting together a new studio.

Putting all bias aside I tried to seriously work out what would be the best choice for a control surface for his setup. He wants a reasonable size control surface as a centerpiece - 16 faders or better. His budget is anywhere from $10k to $20k.

I began to realize what a serious hole there is in the market right now. The new S6 range, both M10 and M40 are overpriced for what he wants to spend.

Avid S6 M10 - from $21,995.00 - $62,395.00
Avid S6 M40 - from $61,830.00 - $112,950.00

ProControl and Control|24 have been killed off, and common sense tells us that the C|24 cannot be far behind. The Icon series are no longer current, and it can only be a matter of a year or two for those to be functionally killed off in Pro Tools too, now that Avid have released the S6 series. The death knell for all these older units has been rung.

The S5 does not even have a transport. I guess it's aimed towards live mixing.

The Artist series are too small as a centerpiece, and the Eucon protocol reports are so bad that I could not in good conscience recommend any control surface that uses it to a client.

Among the 3rd party surfaces, there are obviously the limitiations of HUI to deal with. Out of the entire bunch the SSL Nucleus looks the best as a piece of hardware, and is a reasonable price - but I heard that it has problems working with an internet connection such as Airport, so this fact alone might be a deal-killer for my client's needs.

It's a shame we don't have a HUI-2 spec with greater capabilities and integration for 3rd-party control surfaces, but given Avid's attitude in that department there seems little chance of that ever happening. They don't even want to support their own older control surfaces, never mind 3rd-party hardware.

It's beginning to look like a big opportunity for some other companies to step into the market with both a hardware and software package. Maybe Yamaha/Cubase or PreSonus/StudioOne will be the major contenders. Unless of course Apple dazzles us all with a piece of hardware for Logic.

It's really a shame that Avid have killed off confidence in their products with the deliberate action to disable their older control surfaces. The doubt this has placed in the minds of their existing and potential future customers has been truly destructive. If this had not happened I might have recommended the C|24, but its future looks too flaky now.

I still have no idea what to recommend to my client. All I know is that it won't be an Avid control surface.

[LukeHoward]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

The S5 does not even have a transport. I guess it's aimed towards live mixing.

S3

[Tweakhead]

Originally Posted by LukeHoward

S3

Of course. Thanks Luke.

In that case maybe the "S5" will work - if it ever sees the light of day ...

I wonder if it will have a transport ? . . .

P.S. I've been mixing on my ProControl tonight. Man, it's so well designed that it's mind-boggling.

[LukeHoward]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

Of course. Thanks Luke.

In that case maybe the "S5" will work - if it ever sees the light of day ...

I wonder if it will have a transport ? . . .

P.S. I've been mixing on my ProControl tonight. Man, it's so well designed that it's mind-boggling.

Love the ProControl. :)

[AREED]

Originally Posted by Brahamnesik

Just out of curiosity, anyone is willing to invest in the new S6 control surface system?

Not a chance. Never again.

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

I had an opportunity yesterday to recommend a control surface to a client who is putting together a new studio.

Putting all bias aside I tried to seriously work out what would be the best choice for a control surface for his setup. He wants a reasonable size control surface as a centerpiece - 16 faders or better. His budget is anywhere from $10k to $20k.

I began to realize what a serious hole there is in the market right now. The new S6 range, both M10 and M40 are overpriced for what he wants to spend.

Avid S6 M10 - from $21,995.00 - $62,395.00
Avid S6 M40 - from $61,830.00 - $112,950.00

ProControl and Control|24 have been killed off, and common sense tells us that the C|24 cannot be far behind. The Icon series are no longer current, and it can only be a matter of a year or two for those to be functionally killed off in Pro Tools too, now that Avid have released the S6 series. The death knell for all these older units has been rung.

The S5 does not even have a transport. I guess it's aimed towards live mixing.

The Artist series are too small as a centerpiece, and the Eucon protocol reports are so bad that I could not in good conscience recommend any control surface that uses it to a client.

Among the 3rd party surfaces, there are obviously the limitiations of HUI to deal with. Out of the entire bunch the SSL Nucleus looks the best as a piece of hardware, and is a reasonable price - but I heard that it has problems working with an internet connection such as Airport, so this fact alone might be a deal-killer for my client's needs.

It's a shame we don't have a HUI-2 spec with greater capabilities and integration for 3rd-party control surfaces, but given Avid's attitude in that department there seems little chance of that ever happening. They don't even want to support their own older control surfaces, never mind 3rd-party hardware.

It's beginning to look like a big opportunity for some other companies to step into the market with both a hardware and software package. Maybe Yamaha/Cubase or PreSonus/StudioOne will be the major contenders. Unless of course Apple dazzles us all with a piece of hardware for Logic.

It's really a shame that Avid have killed off confidence in their products with the deliberate action to disable their older control surfaces. The doubt this has placed in the minds of their existing and potential future customers has been truly destructive. If this had not happened I might have recommended the C|24, but its future looks too flaky now.

I still have no idea what to recommend to my client. All I know is that it won't be an Avid control surface.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but let me ask you this...

What car would you recommend someone buy if they want to drive it for 50 years? You probably wouldn't want to make such a recommendation..

So, what car would you recommend someone buy if they want to drive it for 5 years? You could probably come up with at least two or three models you might recommend.

What's the difference between 50 years and 5 years? It's called an expectation and what we are dealing with is called expectation management.

Suppose you bought a car the manufacturer said would be good for 50 years and it quit in the sixth year. You would be quite upset.

Then, suppose you bought a car the manufacturer said would be good for 5 years and it quit in the sixth year. You would be quite happy.

Both cars lasted the same amount of time, but with the "50 year" car you would have higher expectations.

Now let's look at Tweakhead's comments...

ProControl and Control|24 have been killed off, and common sense tells us that the C|24 cannot be far behind.

"Common sense" is a very useful tool, but history is a far better one. So what's the history?

ProControl - Last sale: 12/31/2004 - Last support: 12/31/2009 - 2009-2004 = 5 years

Control|24 - Last sale: 12/31/2007 - Last support: 12/31/2012 - 2012-2007 = 5 years

History would tell us that since the C|24 is still being sold, if you buy one before the "Last sale" date it will still be supported for 5 years following Last sale date.

The Icon series are no longer current, and it can only be a matter of a year or two for those to be functionally killed off in Pro Tools too, now that Avid have released the S6 series.

Keep in mind that there are two separate "series" in the Icon lines, the "Blue" series and the "ES" series. And here's that history thing again...

"Blue" D-Command/D-Control - Last sale: 12/31/2009 - Last support: 12/31/2014 - 2009-2014 = 5 years, or about 15 months from today.

D-Command ES/D-Control ES - Last sale: 8/31/2013 - Last support: 8/31/2018 - 2013-2018 = 5 years, or 5 years-21 days from today.

The death knell for all these older units has been rung.

Except for the C|24, which does not yet have a last sale date. Which means, based on history, that the C|24 will be supported for at least five more years.

Now, let's come back to expectations, and managing them...

If your client wants a guarantee that a control surface will be supported for more than five years and have deep Pro Tools integration...well, there's your belly laugh for the week. But if they'll settle for at least a guaranteed five years and deep Pro Tools integration, the C|24 and the S6 will meet those criteria. And remember, if you had bought a ProControl on its "last sale date", you would have gotten nearly nine years out of it.

So, in order to manage expectations, you can tell your client that if they want deep Pro Tools integration they will have to settle for no more than a guaranteed five-year life span on a control surface, although they might be able to get more than five years out of it.

If the client is willing to settle for a little less Pro Tools integration, SSL, Neve, and even Mackie offer HUI-based control surfaces. And while they may exist, I haven't seen any sort of end-of-life announcements on these third-party surfaces.

The client could switch to another DAW, although only Nuendo/Cubase have announced a deeply integrated control surface (Yamaha's Nuage).

Or your client could forget recording and take up pretzel making. He could probably even build his own oven out of rocks and stuff that will last forever.

But you have to define the expectations first (also known as wants/needs) then try to find a product that fits them. You can't do it the other way 'round.

And that's just the way it is...

[Bill Denton]

A couple of things I forgot in my previous novel...

I deliberately left out Avid's Artist series of controllers, because I don't think anybody outside of Avid knows what's going to be happening there. But absent a bunch of "fix it's" and/or upgrades, I don't see much of a future for them.

And the finale...

Tweakhead said, It's really a shame that Avid have killed off confidence in their products with the deliberate action to disable their older control surfaces.

Tweakhead also said, P.S. I've been mixing on my ProControl tonight. Man, it's so well designed that it's mind-boggling.

You can't have it both ways, so which is it? How were you able to mix on your Pro Control Friday night if Avid disabled your Pro Control?

In fact, your Pro Control works better than it did the day you bought it since PT 10 wasn't around back then.

Avid didn't disable your ProControl, or any other control surface...they all work fine with PT 10...

[Tweakhead]

Hey Bill,

In case you haven't been following this 146-page thread .... it is entitled "Control|24 and ProControl with Pro Tools 11?".

The thread is about how Avid disabled Control|24 and ProControl in Pro Tools 11.

I hope that helps you to understand my previous comment about Avid deliberately disabling ProControl. If you still don't understand, then I am sorry about that. You are probably the only person following the thread who doesn't understand that this entire discussion is about the relationship between Control|24 & ProControl with Pro Tools 11.



P.S. Pro Tools 10 and Pro Tools 11 can co-exist. That is how I can go back and mix while using my ProControl. Does that make sense now ? If not, maybe you should re-read the thread from page 1 to gain an understanding of why people would like Avid to write a driver for these two control surfaces so that they will work in Pro Tools 11.

P.P.S. Jay Leno can probably answer all your car questions. There might be a forum for it somewhere. . .

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

Hey Bill,

In case you haven't been following this 146-page thread .... it is entitled "Control|24 and ProControl with Pro Tools 11?".

The thread is about how Avid disabled Control|24 and ProControl in Pro Tools 11.

I hope that helps you to understand my previous comment about Avid deliberately disabling ProControl. If you still don't understand, then I am sorry about that. You are probably the only person following the thread who doesn't understand that this entire discussion is about the relationship between Control|24 & ProControl with Pro Tools 11.



P.S. Pro Tools 10 and Pro Tools 11 can co-exist. That is how I can go back and mix while using my ProControl. Does that make sense now ?

The thread is about how Avid disabled Control|24 and ProControl in Pro Tools 11.

Uhhhh...no...it's not a matter of disabling anything, Avid simply did not include a driver for the Control|24 in PT 11.

But, as I said, the Control|24 works fine in PT 10. You said it does.

So, it's like taking $100 from you versus not giving you $100. Avid didn't take anything from you, they just didn't give you something.

There is a difference...

While I think there might be a microbe or two of this dead horse that the maggots haven't eaten, why don't we ALL just let this thread go?

There's not going to be a Control|24 driver in PT 11, and all of the posts in this world are not going to change that...