Is APOGEE ROSETTA a must?

[Kamurah]

I am a little confused by your post.

Are you wanting to do your final mix on the Soundcraft, and then go out of it into your standalone CDR?

If so, I think you may want to re-evaluate your setup. Multiple A/D conversions (especially through the Digi hardware) are probably going to degrade your signal.

I have found that an effective signal path is to:
Track all synths through my mixing board and into the Apogee.
Apogee is connected via SPDIF to the 001.
This is the only A/D conversion I do. Everything else stays digital on through until final product.
I mix in PT.
Bounce to disk.
Then burn file to audio CD. You can also use the digital outs of the 001 to go into a standalone CDR (if that CDR has digital ins)
PT/Digi001 is clocked externally off of the Apogee. This improves the overall system clock.
I use the analog outputs of the 001 ONLY FOR MONITORING.

From your post it sounds like you are:
-Using PT as a 'recorder' and mixing off of the Soundcraft, which introduces THREE conversions-
-1st conversion from mixing board into Digi 001. (or direct instrument input into 001)
-2nd conversion from 001 to mixing board.
-3rd conversion from mixing board to CDR, where the CDR burns the disk.

If you want to place the Soundcraft on the outputs of the 001, I would advise using it only for MONITORING, not for your final recording.
You have better control and better recall ability of sessions if you just mix within PT.
If you are having problems with overall levels, you need to examine your gain staging throughout your signal chain.

Are you getting sufficient levels from your synths / instruments to your board?
Is your board providing a sufficient level into your converter?
Are you effectively using compression and eq throughout the process to shape your mix?

Transients and low frequency energy are a challenge when recording and mixing electronic music, since the nature of the music itself is very percussive and bass heavy. Sometimes levels can peak without the music seeming "loud" due to these transients. Effective use of compression and EQ can tame these problems while still maintaining "punch" and dynamic range in the program itself.
It seems like you are asking about several different things. "low level" can be a problem associated with gain staging or transients. "Definition" could be a percieved quality loss, that the improved converters will help with, or it could be related to the gain staging / transient issue described above.

I hope I am not missing the point of your post here....

[bassmac]

If you ask me, I'd say the next consumer standard is already here...and it’s MP3! Just look around, that *is* where the masses are headed.

After all, what sounds better: “A thousand songs in your pocket” or “Ten songs in your pocket...but they sound really-really good” ???

I know the iPod has changed my own music listening experience. I now buy CD’s, rip them into iTunes, and download them into my iPod...and the CD back goes on the shelf.

They’re also going to eventually get this whole Napster thing sorted out, which will further encourage MP3’s. And since everybody has already had a taste of “free music”, the industry is having enough trouble just getting them buy CD’s again, let alone a new standard...which cost's more!

The future is “Low Definition - High Capacity”

[Allen Hallada]

Or how about the new PTHD 192K? That would put us toward a new PTHD system also. Hmmmm.
Decisions, Decisions.

Allen [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[cane]

From your post it sounds like you are:
-Using PT as a 'recorder' and mixing off of the Soundcraft, which introduces THREE conversions-
-1st conversion from mixing board into Digi 001. (or direct instrument input into 001)
-2nd conversion from 001 to mixing board.
-3rd conversion from mixing board to CDR, where the CDR burns the disk.

If you want to place the Soundcraft on the outputs of the 001, I would advise using it only for MONITORING, not for your final recording.
You have better control and better recall ability of sessions if you just mix within PT.
If you are having problems with overall levels, you need to examine your gain staging throughout your signal chain.

Kamurah:I appreciate what you are saying about the signal degration.
Thing is i did mix everything down in ptle before until one day i got curious about sending a few more outputs to the soundcraft console rather than just the standard stereo out for monitoring.
I felt something was missing in the eq side of the plugins on ptle but as soon as i got to run some seperate outs to the console & added some more eq from the ghost i really did get more punch & character into the mix.
I just could'nt got back to finishing in ptle anymore the sound was so much more fatter & louder coming from the consoles main out to the cdr.
So this then led me into thinking about upgrading to a d24 system to get more outs & better conversion purely for the exact same reasons you stated which was the degration of sound being covnerted three times.
But i now figure that getting an a/d converter should ease some of the degration + i dont need to go tdm to get better quality coversion as i've heard that these converters are better than the tdm interfaces such as the 888 ,882 etcetc.
i hope
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Kamurah]

ok....now I am tracking you....


In light of what you said, I would then recommend you check out an Apogee, Lucid, or RME 8 channel unit.

If you are going to mix externally then you really need the best possible conversion that you can get.

Another side note....are you using the Digirack plugs for eq or third party?

I only ask because I feel that the EQ / Compression plugs from companies like Waves, Metric Halo, McDsp, and Bombfactory really exceed the quality of the stock Digi plugs.

Channelstrip, Analog Channel, Ren. Compressor, Waves L1and the LA-2A plugs have been life savers for me....and I highly recommend them if you don't have them already. (I think those are the ones I use most often)

Good luck in your decisions....

[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Imakerecords]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bassmac:
If you ask me, I'd say the next consumer standard is already here...and it’s MP3! Just look around, that *is* where the masses are headed.

After all, what sounds better: “A thousand songs in your pocket” or “Ten songs in your pocket...but they sound really-really good” ???

I know the iPod has changed my own music listening experience. I now buy CD’s, rip them into iTunes, and download them into my iPod...and the CD back goes on the shelf.

They’re also going to eventually get this whole Napster thing sorted out, which will further encourage MP3’s. And since everybody has already had a taste of “free music”, the industry is having enough trouble just getting them buy CD’s again, let alone a new standard...which cost's more!

The future is “Low Definition - High Capacity”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow!!! I think you are absolutely right. My girlfriend and I have portable Mp3 players and love them. Mp3's and even wma is very big. Everyone downloads music or even buy the cd's to eventually convert them to to a lower resolution anyway. Wow! I think you've hit something. You sure don't hear high defintion over the radio. So why invest in 192k or anything higher than what is currently available? With what is available now, we can make high quality music that will more than likely be degraded to a mp3. Very good point. Thanks for the insight. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything now. Even lot's of clubs play mp3's out of the computer dj systems. Very good point.

Imakerecords.

[Allen Hallada]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Still trying to work out which is the one to get ..apogee or lucid.
my weakness is more low level rather than sound quality ,i'm hoping this converter will get me a louder level on my final mix + a little more definition.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Cane,
It sounds like you need the Waves L2 Ultramaximizer hardware then. www.waves.com I just heard from a couple of leading engineers that the L2 blows away anything in its price range for conversion and it comes with the great L2 for pumping your music at the end. It was co-developed with Manley Labs. So you get a great front end A/D up to 24 bit/92k and a great backend tool also for mastering. You would connect this to the SPDIF on Digi bypassing the internal Digi converters and use it as your Master Clock too.
I've used the software versions L1 and L2 at Waves and they rock. The C4 is also a great mastering tool for what you are looking for. These guys also told me that the next step up is the Crane Song HEDD 192 that runs around $3K. A little out of my budget right now.
Good luck.
Allen [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Kamurah]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> It sounds like you need the Waves L2 Ultramaximizer hardware then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another great piece of gear.....

Ah, choices choices.......
[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[cane]

I use the ren eq quite alot but i still dont get quite the same untill i go through
the ghost's eq, for me i think the plugins eq is best used in a very subtle way although im still yet to experience the channel strip or analog channel.

I think that lucid is winning the battle at the moment .
The more post's & reveiws i've read seem to favour the lucid over the rosetta.
I still would appreciate any lucid owners who have also had experince with the rosetta & really compared them.

thanks for all the invaluable info so far. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Kamurah]

I think you are on the right track with the Lucid unit. But which one are you looking at?

In light of what you said earlier.....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>as soon as i got to run some seperate outs to the console & added some more eq from the ghost i really did get more punch & character into the mix. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are using SEPARATE outs for each track....in which case you definitely need an ADA with more than 2 channels.
Also, the Rosetta is only A/D, not D/A so it is of no help (well, 1/2 help) in your current setup.

For what you are looking to do, check out the Lucid ADA 8824. 8 channel ADA with both ADAT outs and SPDIF (for going straight into your Tascam CDR during mixdown).

Lucid ADA 8824

The Apogee 8 channel unit (AD-8000) costs mucho money, and you still have to buy the analog output stage separately.

The third one I would suggest you look at is the RME unit. It doesn't have the SPDIF out, but you can always route the mix back into PT and use the SPDIF on the 001.
RME ADI-8

Another option (just to get it more confusing) would be to get two converters.
Let me explain.
One converter would be the 8 channel unit used for your A/D and D/A during tracking and mixing, then a separate A/D stage (what I am recommending here is the Waves L2 hardware unit that was mentioned above in this thread) for your final conversion before CD. This way, you could have good conversion at each stage of your process, and also have the great L2 limiter on the final step before CD. (The L2, alas, is only a 2 channel unit so if you need multiple outs for your mixdown it would not fit the bill)

Waves L2 Hardware

Again, we are talking serious cash here, but it would be a great way to go if you have the money and want to mix externally.

Again, I don't mean to confuse the issue, and remember that these are just my "opinions".

Cheers