ICON D ? Is this the new controller?

[RobMacki]

How many people hear have actually tasted fresh oregano.

Ahhhh a refreshing break from the banter.

I have fresh oregano growing in my garden as you walk up to the studio, along with Lemon Time, Santa Cruz Time, Basil, (my wife makes killer Pesto in the summer) Rosemary, two Cherry, one Apricot, one Nectarine tree, and four Artichoke bushes, (over 100 last year) Here for best recipe for Hollandaise sauce! I may not get my hands on an ICON but I'll be eating fresh salads this summer!!

[AE]

Emulations will only take you so far. Every shortcut has a down side.

Plug ins will always not be as good as their analog counterparts.

SSL is not better than Neve. It's more convenient.

We've just gotten used to it. Pro Tools is the same thing. MP3's and microwaves are the same thing. Shaker cheese. That too.

How many people hear have actually tasted fresh oregano. Quite different. But we're used to it. Starbucks coffee.

Come to think of it quality and success have not gone hand in hand for quite awhile.

CD's and DVD's were good but vinyl still has it's thing.

Bottomline. Digidesign is betting that we care more about big buttons and lights and total recall than sound quality.

And they may be right. Being able to reacall mixes quickly saves an awful lot of time. And in the near future ( maybe now) studios won't be able to say they can't recall a mix in 5 minutes. Because everyone else will.

If I had the money, I would certainly buy an SSL over this big paperweight. Because I still care about sound quality.

If I was trying to impress a bunch of suits I might consider this board.

This board is clearly convenience over quality.

For some that's ok.

One big plus about this board that nobody has mentioned is the ability to mix in a big facility (monitoring is completely overated in those big studios BTW) and than bring that mix home and recall it. At home. Now that's convenience.

This board will probably be a success but not in making better sounding records.

It will just recall inferior mixes quicker.

Now that's progress.

Peace.

At this point, sound quality in Pro Tools is a signal processing issue. Do an amazing job writing plug-ins for Pro Tools and mixes will sound better. Maybe additional hardware capability will be necessary to get to a significantly higher level, but I doubt it's a question of if as much as when.

In order to work with Pro Tools as the system exists now, the board couldn't address sound quality. What could they have done -- without reinventing the entire system -- to make a sonic difference other than improving the monitor section (which it appears they've done, or at least tried to do)? If the board is suppossed to work with Pro Tools, then the TDM cards and the software that runs on them is what will improve sound quality (assuming decent convertors). Why would anyone expect this stuff to change with the release of a super-console? It's not convenience over quality; they're completely separate.

Plug ins will improve. At some point, it's likely they'll have a sonic quality equal to your favorite analog gear -- as long as the people responsible for design and engineering continue to take the issue seriously. I believe this is true based upon how far digital audio has come in the last 25 - 30 years. And if not, we can still use the old stuff along with the new.

Mixes made on the new consoles will sound better if mixers can be more creative, fight with the technology less, and have a more responsive interface.

I totally agree with your prior posts about the system being too expensive. But I don't get this thing about it coming down to convenience versus quality.

[Kenny Gioia]

I have fresh oregano growing in my garden as you walk up to the studio, along with Lemon Time, Santa Cruz Time, Basil, (my wife makes killer Pesto in the summer) Rosemary, two Cherry, one Apricot, one Nectarine tree, and four Artichoke bushes, (over 100 last year) Here for best recipe for Hollandaise sauce! I may not get my hands on an ICON but I'll be eating fresh salads this summer!!

My kind of guy. Good to hear Rob. My wife is a chef so it seems we are both enjoying the good (food at least) life.

Produceher and all,

One of the places that we differ in our thinking is that I believe that it "may" be possible to make mixes which are sonically every bit as good as any SSL mix within ProTools. Prod, you mentioned that SSL's are not better than Neve's...only more convenient, and yes, that is certainly an opinion which is shared by many, perhaps even myself too. But of course, when you mention Neve, I tend to think that you're referring to the wonderful Neve's of old, like the 8068, 8078, etc, and not the 8108 series. Those old desks have a "romantic" aspect to them in our eyes and yes, that may be tough to live up to in our lifetime, especially going forward into the digital realm.

But at the same time, I'm not at all convinced that ProTools is NOT up to the ask of making great sounding records. I believe that the technology is there, but it is obscured by the fact that so many "hacks" who should NOT be engineering in the first place have taken to PT, thus giving the technology a worse reputation than it deserves. I also believe that now that a more "proper" control surface has arrived, we may see more "real" engineers trying to mix in the format, thus hopefully turning out some great sounding mixes. I really do believe that the lack of a control surface hasn't helped the "mixing in PT" world at all. We'll see if that changes.

One last thing. Some of the posters up here seem to believe that anyone who is interested in PT mixing must be a person who has no interest in audio quality. I just wanted to put it out there that I am VERY concerned at all times with audio quality. Have I always been ok with PT audio? Well, in the beginning, no. Now, I'm kind of feeling as though the technology is there, but we as engineers still have some way to go to learn the ins and outs of maximizing the audio within that format. That's why I am very excited about the Icon...to me it represents the first real step towards making great mixes. Of course, the Icon is NOT necessary for some, but for a console-based guy like me, I just can't seem to get comfortable mixing with a mouse. And I don't think I'm alone in that aspect.

So I'm really thinking that we're going to see and hear some kick ass things over the next year as people get comfortable with the Icon system.

Believe it or not we do agree more than you think.

I assumed everyone around these parts already knew who I was.

I challenged everyone over at the RecPit to a mix off saying “I could beat anyone's Analog mix on my Pro Tools rig”. So I do believe you can make great music on Pro Tools. I just don't believe you need to spend an extra $150,000 to do it.

In Pro Tools you need to work a little harder to get a solid mix. But you can get there. But the only reason I work this hard is because I can't afford an SSL. If I could afford Analog mixed with Pro Tools, I would. Because it does sound better.

Yes. Neve 8068 was my baby for seven years. I cut my teeth on that console.

Only problem with that console is that it is not very modern sounding. But sound quality wise it blows away an SSL. I just dig that SSL sound. I actually prefer PT automation to SSL's. So convenience is not the reason why I prefer the SSL. The music I do, Pop Rock, fits better on an SSL. Real Rock & Roll is better on a Neve. Old Class A Neve that is.

As far as hearing new Kick ass mixes on Pro Tools: I must disagree. The Pro Tools mixers are already out there. I'm one of them. Pro Tools took me about 3 or 4 years to touch mixes I could do on an SSL before.

Why would all the Real Pro's take such a step backwards just to eventually almost equal what they already have now? I don’t see it. None of them will. You’ll see.

So why did I switch? I switched to Pro Tools because I stopped being a Studio House Audio Engineer. I became a Songwriter/Record Producer for Pop Music. This required me to do lots of programming with loops and samples and pretty much everything that is a PITA to do in Analog. So I switched. I never would have switched if I was just a Mixer. No way.

Anytime we say something will NEVER be as good as something else...well lets just say that there's a lot of time in the future for things to change. Are cars better than horses?

Let’s ask the smog over in LA or the Middle Eastern oil producing countries if they like being slaughtered so that we can drive our Jaguar convertibles. (OT - Sorry)

Let’s not make this a you guys VS. me debate. I have nothing against Pro Tools lovers. I’m one of you guys.

Hell, if they install one of these in NYC, I’ll book some time and try mixing on it.

I just don’t see how my mixes are gonna get any better than if I use my Control24. (I like touching real faders too)

Even a Pro Tools expert will take a couple of months on this board before they will mix faster than they do with what they presently own. (Work Patterns and such)

At the price point that I mentioned previously, I was getting in line to buy this bad boy. So we’re not that far off.

I guess.

Peace

[The Eggman]

[QUOTE]

Believe it or not we do agree more than you think. I assumed everyone around these parts already knew who I was.

I challenged everyone over at the RecPit to a mix off saying “I could beat anyone's Analog mix on my Pro Tools rig”. So I do believe you can make great music on Pro Tools. I just don't believe you need to spend an extra $150,000 to do it.

In Pro Tools you need to work a little harder to get a solid mix. But you can get there. But the only reason I work this hard is because I can't afford an SSL. If I could afford Analog mixed with Pro Tools, I would. Because it does sound better.

As far as hearing new Kick ass mixes on Pro Tools: I must disagree. The Pro Tools mixers are already out there. I'm one of them. Pro Tools took me about 3 or 4 years to touch mixes I could do on an SSL before.

Why would all the Real Pro's take such a step backwards just to eventually almost equal what they already have now? I don’t see it. None of them will. You’ll see.

So why did I switch? I switched to Pro Tools because I stopped being a Studio House Audio Engineer. I became a Songwriter/Record Producer for Pop Music. This required me to do lots of programming with loops and samples and pretty much everything that is a PITA to do in Analog. So I switched. I never would have switched if I was just a Mixer. No way.

I just don’t see how my mixes are gonna get any better than if I use my Control24. (I like touching real faders too)

Even a Pro Tools expert will take a couple of months on this board before they will mix faster than they do with what they presently own. (Work Patterns and such)

At the price point that I mentioned previously, I was getting in line to buy this bad boy. So we’re not that far off.

I guess.

Peace

Prod.,

Sorry, but I don't know who you are. I never saw the Recpit challenge that you're referring to, so I don't have that history.

A few thoughts. First off, let's just say that I'm VERY knowledgeable about SSL's. I know how to use them, I know how to buy them, I know how to pay them off, and I know very well how they sound. I've done pretty extensive testing on the subject, and I'm not sure that I agree with your simple assessment that mixing through an SSL "sounds better" than mixing in PT. Based on everything that I know, I am not quick to agree with you there.

Because of that fundamental belief, I don't necessarily agree with your statement that "real pro's" would be "taking a step backward" by starting to mix in PT. FYI, I happened to speak with one of this country's most popular mixers within the last three months. His typical way of working now is to do all processing of all elements except drums in PT and doing all automation in PT (SSL faders at unity). Now for someone like that, making the jump is not such a stretch. But why would such a mixer make the switch? Well, total and instant reset is compelling for the super mixer who may finish a mix and wait 1-3 hours waiting on the star client to arrive. In the meanwhile, said mixer could bring up another song and get it going while waiting for said client. Or how about total automation of all parameters...I did a mix recently which had a section of 32nd note hi hats. The producer asked about panning the notes, which were on a mono track, such that the odd number hits were L and the even number hits were R. This would be virtually impossible on an SSL. With PT automation, as you well know...it was a quick fix. And let's be honest here. Some guys do NOT want to mix with a mouse...but at the current time they basically HAVE TO because their clients are bringing them files with over 100 tracks, and splitting all those out to an SSL is a pain. It takes time, it requires great attention to detail to make sure you have things bussed properly. And when the producer asks for more hi voice in the background blend, said super mixer is forced back to mousing it. So, I can see quite a few reasons why any mixer "might" make the jump to an Icon system. Do I expect that some of them will make the jump in the next three months? NO. The next six months? Most likely not. The next 12? Perhaps. The next 24? Absolutely. And, once one or two of the name mixers make the jump, the others may start looking like the "old guard" that hasn't advanced with technology. Don't be surprised if the industry perceives them as such.

Having said all of that, will the Icon make you a better mixer than you are on your Control 24? Most likely no. But I'm not sure that Digi was aiming this console so much at you as they were the mixers and studios responsible for mixing all the product that hits the airwaves. And while I haven't seen the Icon in person (or D-Control, whatever), from what I can tell, it might be nearly the product it should be. We'll have to see how the industry treats it. But I'm thinking it's the start of the new era...

[The Eggman]

AE,

Great post.

[Giles Reaves]

This is getting real interesting! Great posts, everyone. I just wanted to add an observation about faders/controllers in general, and the ICON specifically.

Much like the TDM vs. Native wars, there seems to be a Faders vs. Mouse thing happening.

I prefer working on a TDM system, not because I prefer dedicated DSP chips over host based processing, but because I prefer to have them BOTH.

By the same token, I prefer mixing on a controller over mixing with a mouse. When you have a controller, you can still choose to do some things with a mouse, and I prefer to have BOTH.

Of the controllers I have actually mixed with (HUI and PC), I still wanted more information in front of me. The ICON at least LOOKS like it will apeal to my way of working, giving plenty of rotories and displays to give more visual feedback.

What I don't yet know is how well all this information is presented, and how easy it is to manage. For example, I know you can assign any on-screen parameter to any knob, but how easy will it be? And how easy will it be to tell which parameter is assigned to each knob?

And for those reasons (and others), I couldn't tell you if my mixes could be better with the ICON system over any other controller (yet). But I'll bet it's better (and more fun) for me than mixing with just the mouse. As always........YMMV

[DC2light]

Wow, $60k-$120k? That's one very expensive mouse! No patch-bay (with built in A/D's-D/A's) for my analog inserts or to be able to do things that I've done on SSL's with the simplicity of a completely recallable surface? Sorry, I don't get it, not at that price. I really expected a lot more. I bet it has a killer Vegas mode though!!

[s2n]

Where are the killer mixes that were made on PT HD with fully expanded Pro Controls? WHERE ARE THEY?!! Wasn't Pro Control "pro" enuff? Find me a Pro Tools mix that sounds better then 'Rage Against The Machine's' debut album. (All analog, by the way...no PT used.) Where are these in-the-box mixes that sound so spectacular? WHERE?!! Some $60k box that's gonna be collecting dust in a few years in the basement of your local GuitarCentre isn't gonna make Pro Tools mixes sound better. It's a box with faders and lights so people can pretend that they own a "real" studio...and try to charge just as much. That's all a Pro Tools-only studio will ever be. A wannabe studio.

[GKB]

Where are the killer mixes that were made on PT HD with fully expanded Pro Controls? WHERE ARE THEY?!! Wasn't Pro Control "pro" enuff? Find me a Pro Tools mix that sounds better then 'Rage Against The Machine's' debut album. (All analog, by the way...no PT used.) Where are these in-the-box mixes that sound so spectacular? WHERE?!! Some $60k box that's gonna be collecting dust in a few years in the basement of your local GuitarCentre isn't gonna make Pro Tools mixes sound better. It's a box with faders and lights so people can pretend that they own a "real" studio...and try to charge just as much. That's all a Pro Tools-only studio will ever be. A wannabe studio.

Just for the record "wannabe Studios" are busy, "Old School" studios are folding like deck chairs.
here is my little wannabe setup ( www.bowlanestudios.com ), busy every day for the last two years.. and i do mean every day, we sometimes have a guy who mixed coldplay mix here, and he loves it. Times are a changin', ("they say jump you say how high")

[georgia]

ok, somebody help me here... I have a couple of dumb questions...

1. what's the difference in the final product quality of a mix done on a control|24 , ProControl , or an ICON, or even the new baby Icon ( I don't remeber the name of the new little controller )

2. why are we discussing a comparison of a $60,000 16 fader ICON to a $500,000 48 channel analog or digital console? kinda oregano vs starbucks coffee...

3. why during this thread do i see a lot of references to $60,000 for an icon when ,for even 24 faders, we're talking more like $80,000... and with 48? somewhere around $140,000... at least according to my local NY sales rep.

4. does anyone have any idea what its going to cost to maintain the new icon? How much is a replacement for one of those pretty and apparently easy to break knobbies? How easy is it to open up or replace any single fader when it gets gumed up with dust and crud? Are these and other moving parts user replacable? or do we have to call a digirep to come vist us on a quarterly basis?

just wondering...

cheers
georgia