The verdict on playing through headphones

[Djent]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum, so hello all! :)

I'm doing my share of research at the moment about eleven rack, as I'm thinking of having it replace my peavey vypyr amp :P

Due to the nature of my budget, I am contemplating over using headphones (I will be buying Bayerdynamic DT770s') through the 11R, but I have read some threads about the quality of the sound being sub par.

I am unable to locally try one of these out hence I have some questions:

1 - What is your opinion on the sound quality of the 11R through decent headphones?
2 - Would the signal sound different or better if I were to plug the headphones into the amp output jack etc?
3 - Am I better off with a powered cab ie Tech 21 Power Engine 60?

Thanks.

Excuse my nooby-ness as this is my first post. :P

[madgt621]

1. I actually use the Beyer DT770 Pros. They sound great, though I must admit they sound better going through my Yamaha HS50's. I find that the DT770's are bit on the bassy side and roll off some highs when compared to the HS50's, but it's not hard to compensate when mixing.

Having worked in a music store, I can tell with 100% certainty that the 11R blows the VYPYR series out of the water.

With that said, as with all audio equipment, your gear is only as good as the speakers pumping the audio. A decent pair of monitors are a great investment.

2. No

3. It really depends on what you plan to use the 11R for. Are you mainly using for studio/home playing, or are you going to primarily use it for live playing? If your primary focus is studio/home recording, buy studio monitors. If you plan to use it more for live work, then yeah, go ahead and buy a power amp/speaker combo such as the Power Engine. But you can always just go direct to the board, so I would say something like the Power Engine isn't absolutely necessary.

Just remember that, if you are using it for recording, you are not going to want to mix through the Power Engine.

[Djent]

Originally Posted by madgt621

1. I actually use the Beyer DT770 Pros. They sound great, though I must admit they sound better going through my Yamaha HS50's. I find that the DT770's are bit on the bassy side and roll off some highs when compared to the HS50's, but it's not hard to compensate when mixing.

Having worked in a music store, I can tell with 100% certainty that the 11R blows the VYPYR series out of the water.

With that said, as with all audio equipment, your gear is only as good as the speakers pumping the audio. A decent pair of monitors are a great investment.

2. No

3. It really depends on what you plan to use the 11R for. Are you mainly using for studio/home playing, or are you going to primarily use it for live playing? If your primary focus is studio/home recording, buy studio monitors. If you plan to use it more for live work, then yeah, go ahead and buy a power amp/speaker combo such as the Power Engine. But you can always just go direct to the board, so I would say something like the Power Engine isn't absolutely necessary.

Just remember that, if you are using it for recording, you are not going to want to mix through the Power Engine.

Whoa, just the reply I've wanted. :)

I guess for live work - I could always just run it via xlr out to a PA, so that hammers away the live situation. I will be mainly using the 11R just for the odd youtube cover and whatnot, no intentions of using it to record anything fancy yet though.

I'm planning mainly to use the 11R as an amp replacement, but I do not have the money currently for a decent set of monitors (eyeing the KRK RP5's) hence the verdict on the headphones.

Would the 11R through the DT770s sound decent enough for an average joe like me, until I get some decent monitors, or do you think I should just go the direct route and get the monitors?

EDIT:
A little off topic, but I'm a soon to be university student in a couple of months, and I'm currently in the market for a laptop to use. I'm interested in the cheapest macbook pro 13 inch model, would a macbook pro + eleven rack suffice for simple recordings?

Thanks for the help mate. Really appreciate it. :)

[madgt621]

Well I think I can help you out here. Let tell you a bit about my situation, as I'm a "student" myself.

2 years ago, I moved from the US to Japan. Needless to say, I couldn't bring my Mesa Dual Rec, 4x12 cab, and full effects rack. Equipped with a 2009 Macbook Pro, MOTU Traveller, and Guitar Rig I set out for new horizons. Coincidentally, the same time I moved Japan, the 11R was released. A match made in heaven, and according to my information from back home the Dual Rec was recently sold.

To this day, I have never bought a power amp or FRFR solution, and have relied mainly on either direct to the board, or sometimes through the power section of whatever amp is handy. (Usually a Marshall DSL)

As far as the computer goes, the new 13inch Macbook Pro's are equipped with 2.8Ghz i7 processors, which dwarfs my humble 2.53Ghz C2D. I am able to run pretty decent sessions, we're talking up to around 40+ tracks with plugins. Also, my MBP is a part of my live rig, and it has no problem running a 64 sample buffer with audio and plugins. So yeah, I'd say that the new MBP would do you just fine.

The only problem I would be wary of is compatibility with Lion. Compatibility with Lion came with PT10, which is what you will have when you buy the 11R. While it seems to be generally "safe" at the moment, it would be good to expect the occasional bug to appear. As long as you abide by the Mac optimizations for PT, it should be smooth sailing.

Regarding the headphones, if you're just mixing for youtube videos, then the Beyers are more than enough. Though you will find out that the standard "camera mic to garageband/iMovie" that so many youtubers do, won't cut it for your any more. And tracking and mixing in PT, and then importing to something like iMovie is the way to go.

[Djent]

Originally Posted by madgt621

Well I think I can help you out here. Let tell you a bit about my situation, as I'm a "student" myself.

2 years ago, I moved from the US to Japan. Needless to say, I couldn't bring my Mesa Dual Rec, 4x12 cab, and full effects rack. Equipped with a 2009 Macbook Pro, MOTU Traveller, and Guitar Rig I set out for new horizons. Coincidentally, the same time I moved Japan, the 11R was released. A match made in heaven, and according to my information from back home the Dual Rec was recently sold.

To this day, I have never bought a power amp or FRFR solution, and have relied mainly on either direct to the board, or sometimes through the power section of whatever amp is handy. (Usually a Marshall DSL)

As far as the computer goes, the new 13inch Macbook Pro's are equipped with 2.8Ghz i7 processors, which dwarfs my humble 2.53Ghz C2D. I am able to run pretty decent sessions, we're talking up to around 40+ tracks with plugins. Also, my MBP is a part of my live rig, and it has no problem running a 64 sample buffer with audio and plugins. So yeah, I'd say that the new MBP would do you just fine.

The only problem I would be wary of is compatibility with Lion. Compatibility with Lion came with PT10, which is what you will have when you buy the 11R. While it seems to be generally "safe" at the moment, it would be good to expect the occasional bug to appear. As long as you abide by the Mac optimizations for PT, it should be smooth sailing.

Regarding the headphones, if you're just mixing for youtube videos, then the Beyers are more than enough. Though you will find out that the standard "camera mic to garageband/iMovie" that so many youtubers do, won't cut it for your any more. And tracking and mixing in PT, and then importing to something like iMovie is the way to go.

Having owned a dual rectifier, how does the modelled version on the 11R sound?

I'm totally new to pro tools and what not - is it a fairy easy program to grow accustomed to and use?

Would the Marshall DSL poweramp still colour the tone of the 11 rack? Or does running the 11rack through the whole fx loop bypass the effects loop?

Thanks for the info.

[madgt621]

I would definitely say that it's faithful to the original, and my settings on the on the 11R the are more or less the same than they were with the actual amp. I actually changed some of the preamp tubes in my dual rec so it's not completely the same.

You should keep in mind that the sound of the 11R is the sound of an amp "mic'ed up" instead of an "amp in the room" sound. Since I had recorded my amp before I knew what to expect, but apparently this catches some people off guard.

Going in through the effects loop of a Marshall DSL is like a direct line to the power amp section, bypassing the preamp stage. It does color the tone, but this is to be expected. The same goes for just about any standard amp head that was not built for amp-modelling effects processors in mind. The best thing to do in that situation, is to turn the master volume of the 11R amps down (not the master volume of the 11R itself), and the master volume on the real amp up. That way, you're not getting the power amp modelling from the 11R, which will conflict with the actual tone coloration of the real deal power amp. Of course you turn off cab simulation too.

Regarding the learning curve of PT, I've actually found it to have the most intuitive interface in terms of tracking and mixing, making it by far the easiest DAW I've learned. But I cut my DAW chops on Ableton Live, which is more or less the same except for how it deals with effects routing, and of course it's ability to call in audio on the fly. I also use Logic and Reaper from time to time, and they are good in there own right, and have features that PT doesn't, but there was no program that I was able to pick up faster than PT. To this day I'm still bashing my head against the keyboard when working with Reaper.

As long as you understand signal flow you should be good to go. And I don't know if PT still comes with a dvd that pretty much shows you how to get started, but if it does, it's good to give that a look, as well as work your way through the reference guide. Of course there's a multitude of tutorials online as well, and if there's anything else you need help with, the DUC here will pretty much point you in the right direction.

[Djent]

Originally Posted by madgt621

I would definitely say that it's faithful to the original, and my settings on the on the 11R the are more or less the same than they were with the actual amp. I actually changed some of the preamp tubes in my dual rec so it's not completely the same.

You should keep in mind that the sound of the 11R is the sound of an amp "mic'ed up" instead of an "amp in the room" sound. Since I had recorded my amp before I knew what to expect, but apparently this catches some people off guard.

Going in through the effects loop of a Marshall DSL is like a direct line to the power amp section, bypassing the preamp stage. It does color the tone, but this is to be expected. The same goes for just about any standard amp head that was not built for amp-modelling effects processors in mind. The best thing to do in that situation, is to turn the master volume of the 11R amps down (not the master volume of the 11R itself), and the master volume on the real amp up. That way, you're not getting the power amp modelling from the 11R, which will conflict with the actual tone coloration of the real deal power amp. Of course you turn off cab simulation too.

Regarding the learning curve of PT, I've actually found it to have the most intuitive interface in terms of tracking and mixing, making it by far the easiest DAW I've learned. But I cut my DAW chops on Ableton Live, which is more or less the same except for how it deals with effects routing, and of course it's ability to call in audio on the fly. I also use Logic and Reaper from time to time, and they are good in there own right, and have features that PT doesn't, but there was no program that I was able to pick up faster than PT. To this day I'm still bashing my head against the keyboard when working with Reaper.

As long as you understand signal flow you should be good to go. And I don't know if PT still comes with a dvd that pretty much shows you how to get started, but if it does, it's good to give that a look, as well as work your way through the reference guide. Of course there's a multitude of tutorials online as well, and if there's anything else you need help with, the DUC here will pretty much point you in the right direction.

Wow really? Sorry to ask again - but how faithful is the 11R headphone sounds of the Mesa, compared through the real deal?

I've also been recommended the Blackstar Series One 45 by some people, as I'm looking for something which can more or less get me a John Petrucci tone, all the way to 'djent', although the 11R isn't that good for that type of music.

Sweet, I guess I've got a friend doing audio engineering to kickstart me in PT"s anyway. :P

[blewis]

I've had the 11R for two years now. I have a set of Audio Technia ATM-40fs headphones.

I have enjoyed playing the 11R through these headphones quite a bit. The output with my headphones is loud, but not ridiculously loud. I think the sound quality is good.

Everyone complains about the headphones amps on all these modelers. While I enjoy the 11R's headphone out, I did not like the HD500's headphone output.

As a stand alone modeler, I think the 11R is a great purchase for a student. Lots of flexibility and good sound.

You'll have the late night, headphone playing covered and the recording aspect covered. What you'll have to sort out, if you play with others, is how to amplify the 11R - either through a guitar amp, dedicated PA monitor, or through the PA itself.

What follows is more information than you asked for, but an important consideration...

Some of what you're paying for is buying into the ProTools market. These are pro tools, and upgrades to that software is priced accordingly. It's possible that two years from now, it'll cost $500 to upgrade to the newest ProTools version - if that's important to you.

Consider that this may result in you being stuck on a particular OS release for your computer if you don't want to spend $500 (to get compatibility for an OS that cost you $35). I am now stuck keeping a laptop running an older version of Mac OS to be compatible with an old Pro Tools version - just so I can backup my patches.

The object you purchase will still work as good as it has with the software that comes with it, but you're also buying into Avid's software world when you purchase the 11R. If you're into the studio thing, that makes more sense. If you're just a guitarist, it makes less sense.

[Djent]

Originally Posted by blewis

I've had the 11R for two years now. I have a set of Audio Technia ATM-40fs headphones.

I have enjoyed playing the 11R through these headphones quite a bit. The output with my headphones is loud, but not ridiculously loud. I think the sound quality is good.

Everyone complains about the headphones amps on all these modelers. While I enjoy the 11R's headphone out, I did not like the HD500's headphone output.

As a stand alone modeler, I think the 11R is a great purchase for a student. Lots of flexibility and good sound.

You'll have the late night, headphone playing covered and the recording aspect covered. What you'll have to sort out, if you play with others, is how to amplify the 11R - either through a guitar amp, dedicated PA monitor, or through the PA itself.

What follows is more information than you asked for, but an important consideration...

Some of what you're paying for is buying into the ProTools market. These are pro tools, and upgrades to that software is priced accordingly. It's possible that two years from now, it'll cost $500 to upgrade to the newest ProTools version - if that's important to you.

Consider that this may result in you being stuck on a particular OS release for your computer if you don't want to spend $500 (to get compatibility for an OS that cost you $35). I am now stuck keeping a laptop running an older version of Mac OS to be compatible with an old Pro Tools version - just so I can backup my patches.

The object you purchase will still work as good as it has with the software that comes with it, but you're also buying into Avid's software world when you purchase the 11R. If you're into the studio thing, that makes more sense. If you're just a guitarist, it makes less sense.

Just what I needed, I've had some trouble some non biased views on the 11R etc.

How did you find the HD500 amps and whatnot compared to the 11R? Did you like anything on the HD more than the 11R?

Is your mixing/recording on PT's limited by the fact you're running an older version of PTs, and on an older Mac? Would I be better off with a Windows for compatibility and whatnot instead of a Mac?


EDIT
@madgt621: Headphones wise, are you using the 250 ohm or 80 ohm version of the DT770's? Is there any difference really? I read on the beyer site about the difference impedances, and apparently the 80ohm versions are less bassy, and more high-mid focused. I'm a little worried about getting a super low volume with the 250 ohms..

1 - Which impedance version are you using?
2 - Can you get a decent volume with them?
3 - Which impedance version would you recommend?

[blewis]

Originally Posted by Djent

How did you find the HD500 amps and whatnot compared to the 11R?

In general I found the HD500 to be muddy. My latest firmware was v1.3 which helped some. For me, I found I just could not dial in good sounds on anything but my bridge pickups.

The 11R doesn't give me that kind of trouble. Grab a knob and tweak it on the 11R, and it feels like you're adjusting a real amp. The HD500 feels like you're tweaking parameters in some math model.

That's me. I've heard clips of great sounds from the HD500, so some of this is my inability to work with that box.

In general, anytime I came back to the 11R from the HD500, it was like a sigh of relief.

Did you like anything on the HD more than the 11R?

Yes, the HD500 has several different configurations: bean, pro, foot controller. Having a built in foot controller is great.

Avid has had two years to offer a different hardware configuration. Doesn't look like they're interested.

Once a month someone comes here asking "what is the best MIDI foot controller". Buy an HD500 and you'll never have to ask that question.


HD500 has a standalone editor. Go to line6's website and download it. Free. Easy. No hassle. 11R's editor is only within ProTools.

Is your mixing/recording on PT's limited by the fact you're running an older version of PTs, and on an older Mac?

If you buy your 11R now, many of the things I hate about PT8 won't affect you. I was astonished when I found out I couldn't launch ProTools 8 without having the 11R connected and that PT8 didn't have Automatic Delay Compensation for plug-in FX. These were things available to me 7 years ago on Digital Performer.

You won't have those problems with PT9 or PT10, but you will need to have a USB dongle key to launch those versions.

Would I be better off with a Windows for compatibility and whatnot instead of a Mac?

Not sure. "I'm a mac". Benoni is the resident Windows expert. I've heard windows users universally loath that PT isn't 64 bit.