Drummers - Talk to me about Alan White

[Mark_Knecht]

Hi,
Sorry for this amazingly off-PTLE-002-001 topic this morning, but I'm relistening (somewhat critically) to Relayer again this morning and am struck by how little Alan White hits his snare on this recording, especially through the whole of Gates of Delirium.

Since I spent yesterday listening to one of Bill Bruford's jazz CDs, marveling at his wonderful use of weird snare hits, both velocity and timing, all over the place, Alan's work on this classic Yes CD is a big change.

Was this always his style, or just what he did on this recording?

This is actually moderately related to PTLE MIDI as I'm working harder on MIDI-based drum patterns and trying to mimic styles of drummers I've always liked, Bruford and White included.

Thanks in advance for any comments, ideas, observations, well wishes and flames. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Mark

[nevadadad]

Originally posted by Mark_Knecht:
[QB
Since I spent yesterday listening to one of Bill Bruford's jazz CDs, marveling at his wonderful use of weird snare hits, both velocity and timing, all over the place, Alan's work on this classic Yes CD is a big change.

Was this always his style, or just what he did on this recording?
[/QB]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can't really answer your question -- I'm just gonna blather a bit... I love Bruford's Yes and early Crimson work.

Also loved Yes up thru Topographic Oceans, White's debut with the band, I think. Recall very little of Relayer ("Soon" mostly). But I remember being struck by how different Yes sounded with White. I thought he was a "slogger", a behind-the-beat plodding rocker with none of Bruford's originality, though certainly a very competent drummer. He kinda reminded me of Kenny Jones if he'd gone to Berklee. And I like that style, but it was jarring to hear it in Yes.

Bruford's got a tea-drinking, educated British sound, and plays more on top of the beat. But his surprising choices warm up that precise sound. His slightly ringing snare tone was the coolest during the dry-snare 70's.

End of reminiscing! I need to get some of Brudord's Earthworks. Haven't heard it.

[Sabe]

I agree with you nevadadad concerning the switch "Yes" made to White. Very simple, straight forward beats, but good beats none the less. It didn't open up the other instruments like I thought it would though... for example, Howe's guitar work was actually more intense and diverse with a complicated drum track (Bruford) rather than an uncomplicated drum track (White). It seems this should have the opposite affect on the band, loose drums, hence more space to fill. Just an observation.

I know this doesn't help answer your question Mark, but it is an interesting subject.

Bruford's "ringing" snare was incredible on the entire "Fragile" album, especially on the "Roundabout" track. I remember back then trying to figure out the technique used for micing up that snare and what, if any, processing was used to create that "ring". Then it occurred to me that it most likely was the tuning of the drum and drumming technique rather than a studio trick.

Also, during "Yes" 80's and 90's radio success they used White again for drums. And if I am not mistaken, White was their original drummer before Bruford, back in the band's early "demo" days and possibly their first album. Not the self titled album "Yes" but an earlier one (sorry, can't remember the name of it).

Sorry for the ramble, I really like "Yes" and their name doesn't come up very often around here. So I thought I would chime in. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Roy Howell]

Hi Mark,
'Close to the Edge' seemed to climax that little era of Yes, beginning with 'Fragile'. That was my favorite Yes era, with Bruford. They seemed to be starting a whole new musical search beginning with Alan White, and the material wasn't as good to me as before. I mean, he's an excellent drummer, but Bruford's work was just exceptional from my view. I actually learned most of Steve Howe's parts from the Bruford era, I was so impressed.

[moonmusic]

Hello,
I don't know if this adds to the conversation or not but I have a heavy hitters CD that features single hit samples from various drummers...They have Alan White's kit sampled from the Yes "Union" album...Here's what was in the footnotes...
Drums/Hardware:
Ludwig Drums and Hardware,Zildjian cymbals and sticks,Axis pedals...
Microphones:
Snare:Shure Sm 57 on top/Sennheiser 421 on bottom.
Kick:AKG D12 and Beyer 88-Shure SM-91
Toms Shure SM 57 and Sennheiser 421
Overhead Mics AKG 414 and Neuman U87

[Mark_Knecht]

Interesting comments from everyone. I don't disagree with anything said here nor am I sure that I have much to add. It's really just observations. I was really wondering what the drummers thought of the different styles.

I completely agree, nevadadad, with your assessment of the difference between the two. There is precision to what Bruford does, without it ever sounding like he's forced into some timing. Check out 'The Sounds of Surprise'. Very good music.

No question (to me anyway) that Bruford was technically the more unique drummer. What I was really struck by listening to White today was that there were long sections where he was playing his hat and cymbals like they were the main drums, with just a kick going and a tom fill. No snare for a good period of time. It seemed unconventional to me today, but I certainly never thought that when I saw him, and I saw him many times. I wonder now if he played differently for the CD vs. the show. And if so, was there a reason?

I actually liked the later stuff that the band did very much, really starting with Close To The Edge. The earlier stuff turned me on to Yes, but Close To The Edge changed what I thought and played, as did Relayer and Topographic Oceans. Much past T.O. I don't remember it having a large impact, other than the odd song here and there. I've always been interested in the band, no matter what the lineup.

Anyway, Yes is one of those bands that did an awful lot of unique things, great shows with some really great musicians. This was just an observation and an opportunity to start a bit of a chat.

Thanks,
Mark

[stut5]

Originally posted by Mark_Knecht:
Interesting comments from everyone. I don't disagree with anything said here nor am I sure that I have much to add. It's really just observations. I was really wondering what the drummers thought of the different styles.

I completely agree, nevadadad, with your assessment of the difference between the two. There is precision to what Bruford does, without it ever sounding like he's forced into some timing. Check out 'The Sounds of Surprise'. Very good music.

No question (to me anyway) that Bruford was technically the more unique drummer. What I was really struck by listening to White today was that there were long sections where he was playing his hat and cymbals like they were the main drums, with just a kick going and a tom fill. No snare for a good period of time. It seemed unconventional to me today, but I certainly never thought that when I saw him, and I saw him many times. I wonder now if he played differently for the CD vs. the show. And if so, was there a reason?

I actually liked the later stuff that the band did very much, really starting with Close To The Edge. The earlier stuff turned me on to Yes, but Close To The Edge changed what I thought and played, as did Relayer and Topographic Oceans. Much past T.O. I don't remember it having a large impact, other than the odd song here and there. I've always been interested in the band, no matter what the lineup.

Anyway, Yes is one of those bands that did an awful lot of unique things, great shows with some really great musicians. This was just an observation and an opportunity to start a bit of a chat.

Thanks,
Mark

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A good friend of mine was teaching drums at the local music store when Allen White was going to be giving a drum clinic .He was given the job of picking him up at the airport and bringing him to the store.After the clinic they went to his house for some brews and to show Allen his drum set,afterwards they went out for dinner and more beers.I was invited but had to work that night. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] Stu

[nevadadad]

Mark,
Your topic was a nice coincidence, which is why I chimed in. Last weekend I attended a birthday deck party. Guy had his big ol' stereo speakers positioned at left/right on the deck, pointing out. As it got late, the lady of the house couldn't get her husband to turn the music down, so she slyly turned the speakers in toward each other when hubby wasn't looking.

Shortly thereafter "Close To The Edge" began. I thought "Holy moly, I haven't heard this in 15 years!" So I positioned myself on the deck between the speakers and listened to the whole "side" at a nice loud volume. Fantastic -- and I was quite sober! It was nostalgic, but I was listening with new ears, too -- great music and a great recording, too.

[nevadadad]

Originally posted by Mark_Knecht:
What I was really struck by listening to White today was that there were long sections where he was playing his hat and cymbals like they were the main drums, with just a kick going and a tom fill. No snare for a good period of time.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now you've really got me curious to hear Relayer.

Is it possible there were problems with the snare track and they just muted it here and there? Naw...

[Mark_Knecht]

Don't think so. You can hear 2 drum sticks playig high hats for long periods of time, with a kick going, then rolls on the toms, then back to hats...

Originally posted by nevadadad:
[QBIs it possible there were problems with the snare track and they just muted it here and there? Naw...[/QB]

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