PC build for low record latency? Pro Tools | Carbon?

[LordGerkin]

Seeking your advice

Question:

What PC do I need in 2022 to run latest standard Pro Tools with usable (1-10ms?) record latency?

Context:

I'm a Luddite. I know NOTHING about computers, recording/ mixing techniques or pro audio. Please be gentle, and please offer any advice you think I might need based on what I have (inexpertly) set out below.

My current (unusable) PC

My current PC is ancient (~10 years old). Details should appear in my signature block.

Record latency on the most basic session (eg, 5 tracks with 2 plug-ins each, plus a Master track with 4-8 plugins) is unworkable for tracking overdubs.

I'm generally dealing with record latency of ~80-100ms. It's impossible.

My needs

I want to buy a new PC that can handle my needs effortlessly.

I'm doing some really basic home demo recording.

My sessions comprise a 50/50 split between soft/ MIDI instruments and audio tracks. I use 2-4 plugins MAX on each of these tracks (eg EQ, compression, reverb and/ or channel strip).

I use simple routing to a sub-mix or Master fader with the usual handful of "mastering" plugins on those tracks.

I don't envisage ever using more than 24 tracks.

I NEED to be able to "overdub" audio or MIDI tracks to these basic sessions. A record latency of 80-100ms makes this impossible. I want a PC that can handle this.

Budget

Budget is flexible.

I'm thinking AUD3-5k for a new PC. New OS and new interface (if required) additional. I'm assuming I'll be able to upgrade from my current PT 12.8.0 to latest version once I have my new PC (I have a perpetual licence and I haven't updated yet because I'm still stuck on Windows 7).

Am I dreaming that I can get what I need from a new PC on (or around) this budget?

My research re: PC build

I've spent days researching and I'm still no closer to understanding what I need (or whether what I need is even possible).

I think I need an Intel CPU? The bigger the better? Something with a "K" suffix?
I think I need 32 GB DDR4 @ 3200?
I think I need a 1TB system drive and at least one separate SSD or spinner for my audio files/ sample library?

Thunderbolt ports?
New interface?
PCI-e slots?
Power?
CPU cooler?
Graphics card?
Other?

With all the variables I wonder how anyone has ever built a Pro-Tools suitable PC before.

Again, my NUMBER 1 priority is (simply?) to be able to record overdubs on a basic session. Record latency of 80-100ms will not suffice.

Pro Tools | Carbon

In my research, I discovered the Carbon interface/ DSP.

Carbon seems to be designed to achieve precisely the kind of results I'm looking for.

It made me wonder whether I could ever achieve the record latency I need from a PC build? Otherwise what's the use of hardware like this (maybe for significantly larger/ more CPU-intensive sessions/ workflow preferences)?

In Summary

I'm a noob. Have embarrassed myself here, but I don't know where else to go.

Is it possible to build a PC that can handle basic Pro Tools sessions with usable record latency in 2022. If so, what are its specs?

Thanks in advance,

Lord Gerkin.

[EGS]

Start by reading the last few pages here http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=238426

[The Weed]

Have a look at www.pro-tools-pc.com.

Not inexpensive, but the builders are very knowledgeable and support their product.

Before that, what version of Pro Tools, what plug-ins are you using and what latency are they causing and what Buffer size are you using when recording? Can you use Disk Cache - depends on how much RAM you have? Can Commit tracks nd overdub after that? Have you done all the optimizations on your current computer. Have a look at the "Help Us Help You" link at the top of each Forum and maybe post a Sandra report.

[albee1952]

More options(and less). Forget about Carbon as there is no PC(not that I am aware of) that will run any AVB interface. I like pro-tools-pc, but there are also other options and here's the best one to my mind; a used(eBay?) HP Z820 workstation. These are available with dual 6-core 3.5GHz XEON cpu's and can take a lot of RAM. 3 years ago, I bought this spec, with 64GB of RAM, nVidia quadro graphics, DVD burner and a 500GB SSD(loaded with Windows 10 Pro) for around $1100 shipped to my door. I loaded in my HDN card, connected my HD and 192 IO's(2 of each) and spent the next 2 years recording full bands with dozens of plugins(all low-latency choices) at the 64 buffer setting without issue. I also was feeding 6 stereo headphone mixes with sends on tracks(max of 32 live inputs as that's all the preamps I had). If I were going to go back to tracking bands again, I would go the same route today.

Tech warnings:
#1-this PC is an Avid-approved model but they have specific instructions as to which slot the HDN/HDX cards need to go into.
#2-there are 2 sets of SATA ports, one near the middle of the motherboard and another at the bottom edge. The DVD burner would not burn when connected to the middle row. As soon as I moved it to the bottom, it worked perfectly.
#3-its a bit short on USB ports so I added a cheap USB3 card to add 4 ports.
#4-I wanted optical SPDIF out for Windows sound and it didn't have that output. I solved it with a $35 Behringer USB-SPDIF box

[guitardom]

Just FYI, Carbon does not work on PC. Its rather frustrating they went down this route with it and it could change, but at this point you would need to go a different route for an interface.

[Darryl Ramm]

Hey great that you are here asking questions and folks providing advice. But I would be very careful that you are not leaping to the assumption you *need* a new PC for whatever problem you are having.

"A record latency of 80-100ms makes this impossible. " Uh why is this so high? You give very little actually useful information about your current PC. And you will likely learn a lot about things by trying to troubleshoot and/or work around this. Can you post a Sandra report for this PC, see under "help us help you" up the top of this web page. The Intel i7 in that PC itself should be capable of running quite large sessions. But it is all the other stuff around the edges, and it takes just one small thing wrong to end up with a lemon. With an SSL2 interface you are not likely to be tracking large sessions... but describe best you can what you are doing.

What IO buffer size are you running at? What sample rates?

What is in a typical session? (esp. how many tracks, what VIs etc.).

How small a IO buffer size can you run at before Pro Tools crashes? Make sure "ignore errors'' is *not* checked. What exact error is reported?

Double check the system is fully optimized, you have done *everything* in the optimization list however inconvenient for now.

If you are crashing with AAE errors at moderate buffer size with reasonable sessions (e.g. >=128-256 sample buffers @ 44.1/44 kHz) then you should be running through the standard troubleshooting process, under "help us help you" specially trashing prefs and moving all plugin files out of the plugin folder and just testing with the standard Pro Tools plugins which will be automatically installed (and with plugins it's not just those being used, just having a bad plugin installed is enough to screw up your system at lower buffer sizes).

When you post your Sandra report here make clear which drive(s) reported there you are using for sessions and for VI samples.

Since you are running Pro Tools 12.8, you have disk cache. Assuming you are not out of memory, you should have that set to a size to cache the session, not "normal".

The SSL2 has hardware monitoring, aka "monitor mix" you can't use that for overdubs? What are you overdubbing? Vocals? Are you just overdubbing or trying to use punch ins etc?

Pulling numbers out of the air... 44.1 kHz sample rate 256 sample buffer ~6ms plus a few more ms for conversion time. Many off the shelf computers and basic DAW setup should have no problem doing stuff like that. For very heavy sessions, then you may need to change workflows, freeze or commit tracks. And you do have track freeze in 12.8. Edit: you are not likely missing anything too important in Pro Tools 12.8 from a performance viewpoint, there were significant improvements in plugin processing in a 2018 release, especially if you are using plugins in deep chains. So I'd spend some time now just trying to getting stuff optimized and working properly on what you have on Pro Tools 12 and Windows 7. Not thinking you even need to upgrade software right now.

Is delay compensation enabled? What is Pro Tools showing for latency on each track? Do you understand what happens with delay compensation and tracks in input?

If I'm asking questions that make no sense... then you really should get up to speed before making decisions. Google terms or look them up in the Pro Tools Reference Guide PDF (a wonderful resource).

Make sure you are not trying to track/monitor though high latency plugins, especially say very high latency levelling plugins intended for mastering. You should be roughly aware of all the latency of high latency plugins.

You can't simply just upgrade Pro Tools 12 to the current version. Avid does not currently provide a way to do that. You *might* get lucky and find a dealer with an old promotional upgrade still in stock, otherwise you are facing switching to a subscription or buying a new perpetual licenses, but that maybe one of the simpler issues, depending on how far you go down the low latency rabbit hole.

We sometimes see folks here who may have fallen down the audio latency rabbit hole, maybe struck their head on the way down, and can end up staggering around worrying about latency. Be careful you do not talk yourself into buying shiny new things for the wrong reasons. Many people manage to get by with a fairly off the shelf computer (although with Windows, always worth checking what is a good buy/build) and interface. Some may use hardware mixers if they want no latency monitoring.

---

The DUC i7 build thread already given above is *the* source for good/trusted PC builds here if you are building your own PC, or having somebody build it for you. But wanting to build a PC is maybe opposite to what I'd expect for somebody saying they have no PC experience.

[albee1952]

Darryl raised some good points. You might consider adding your computer details as a signature(like mine), but here is a paste from your info for others to see quickly:
System Details
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770 3.40 GHz
RAM: 32 GB DDR3 1600
OS: Windows 7 (going to upgrade with new PC to 10 or 11)
Interface: SSL 2+
DAW: Pro Tools 12.8.0 (Perpetual - going to upgrade with new PC)

[albee1952]

Looking at these details makes me think a few things:
#1-assuming a compatible motherboard and a properly fast recording drive, this computer and interface should do a fine job
#2-updating to Windows 10 is probably a very good idea(but save a drive image FIRST).
#3-being a self-admitted luddite, I wonder if you are causing latency by using poorly-chosen plugins while tracking. Set your MIX window to show Delay Compensation(under the VIEW menu) and look at the numbers across the bottom of the MIX window. If you see numbers higher than 10-11 samples, figure out which plugin(s) is causing this Delay Compensation and make it(them) inactive while recording(and keep your playback buffer at 64 while recording).
#4-(part of #3) remember that plugins on the Master track are NOT compensated for(which means recording with a mastering limiter is a bad thing to do).


Do post that Sandra report(sisoft.com) and consider: I run a slightly OLDER setup(i7 3930K/X79 mobo, 32GB RAM, SSD system drive) with Windows 10 and the very latest PT version) and it runs absolutely dandy(IOW, I have no latency issues when recording guitar, bass or keyboard midi). If you don't really NEED a new PC, that money might get you a great mic, some great new plugins and maybe a year-long signup to groove3.com for some excellent tutorial videos

[Darryl Ramm]

Anytime I see somebody wanting to spend money on a new computer, I can't help but think hey slow down a bit and let's check... you might be able to buy a new Les Paul instead, or even get a decent guitar

[LordGerkin]

Hi All,

(1 of 2)

Thanks very much for your responses. I am going through your comments and compiling answers to the questions you have raised.

I don't have all the information you have asked for available at the moment, but to make a start, I provide the following:

Sandra report

SiSoftware Sandra

Computer
Model : OEM
Serial Number : To Be Fille***********
Chassis : Desktop
Mainboard : ASRock Z87 Pro4
Serial Number : E80-350********
BIOS : AMI (OEM) P1.20 05/08/2013
Intel Management Engine (ME) : 9.0.2.1345

System Memory
Total Memory : 32GB DIMM DDR3

Processors
Processor : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770 CPU @ 3.40GHz (4C 8T 3.7GHz, 3.7GHz/3.9GHz IMC, 4x 256kB L2, 8MB L3)
Socket/Slot : FC LGA1150

Chipset
Memory Controller : ASRock Core4 (Haswell) DRAM Controller 100MHz, 2x 16GB DIMM DDR3 1.6GHz 128-bit

Memory Module(s)
Memory Module : A-Data 10242281 8GB DIMM DDR3 2Rx8 PC3-12800U DDR3-1600 (11-11-11-29 5-40-13-6)
Memory Module : Kingston 99U5471-050A00LF 8GB DIMM DDR3 2Rx8 PC3-12800U DDR3-1600 (11-11-11-29 5-40-13-6)
Memory Module : A-Data 10242281 8GB DIMM DDR3 2Rx8 PC3-12800U DDR3-1600 (11-11-11-29 5-40-13-6)
Memory Module : Kingston 99U5471-050A00LF 8GB DIMM DDR3 2Rx8 PC3-12800U DDR3-1600 (11-11-11-29 5-40-13-6)

Video System
Monitor/Panel : LG IPS FULLHD (1920x1080, 21.7")
Monitor/Panel : BNQ BenQ G2412HD
(1920x1080, 23.4")
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730 (384S 2C SM5.0 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz 64-bit, PCIe 2.0 x8)
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730 (384S 2C SM5.0 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz 64-bit, PCIe 2.0 x8)

Graphics Processor
CUDA : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730 (384S 2C SM3.5 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz/5GHz 64-bit)
OpenCL : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730 (384S 2C SM3.0 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz/5GHz 64-bit)
D3D 11 : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730 (384S 2C SM11.0 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz/5GHz 64-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730/PCIe/SSE2 (384S 2C SM4.60 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz/5GHz 64-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce GT 730/PCIe/SSE2 (384S 2C SM4.60 901MHz, 512kB L2, 2GB 5GHz/5GHz 64-bit)

Storage Devices
Disk : WDC WD10EZEX-00KUWA0 (1TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Disk : Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB (500.1GB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Disk : WDC WD10EADS-00L5B1 (1TB, USB2/SATA300, 3.5", 32MB Cache)
Disk : WDC WD3200BEVT-22ZCT0 (320.1GB, USB2/SATA300, 2.5", 5400rpm, 8MB Cache)
Disk : Seagate ST3000DM001-9YN166 (3TB, USB2/SATA150/600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Optical : HL-DT-STDVDRAM GH24NS95 (474.9MB, SATA, DVD+-RW, CD-RW)

Logical Storage Devices
ProToolsFiles (E:) : 932GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ WDC WD10EZEX-00KUWA0 (1TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Hard Disk (C:) : 465GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB (500.1GB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
BACKUPS (F:) : 931GB (FAT32, 32kB) @ WDC WD10EADS-00L5B1 (1TB, USB2/SATA300, 3.5", 32MB Cache)
Multimedia (H:) : 298GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ WDC WD3200BEVT-22ZCT0 (320.1GB, USB2/SATA300, 2.5", 5400rpm, 8MB Cache)
Expansion Drive (G:) : 3TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Seagate ST3000DM001-9YN166 (3TB, USB2/SATA150/600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Audio CD (D:) : N/A (CDFS, 2kB, Read-Only) @ HL-DT-STDVDRAM GH24NS95 (474.9MB, SATA, DVD+-RW, CD-RW)

Peripherals
LPC Hub Controller : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) LPC Controller
Audio Device : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) HD Audio Controller
Audio Codec : Realtek Semi High Definition Audio
Audio Device : ASUS GK208 HDMI/DP Audio Controller
Audio Codec : nVidia nForce4 ISA Bridge
Serial Port(s) : 1
Disk Controller : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) 6-Port SATA AHCI Controller
USB Controller : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) USB3 xHCI Host Controller
USB Controller : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) USB2 Enhanced Host Controller #2
USB Controller : ASRock ICH80 (Lynx Point) USB2 Enhanced Host Controller #1
USB Controller : Renesas Tech uPD720201 USB 3.0 Host Controller
SMBus/i2c Controller : Intel ICH SMBus

Printers and Faxes
Printer : Send to Microsoft OneNote 16 Driver (1200x1200, Colour)
Printer : Microsoft XPS Document Writer (600x600, Colour)
Fax : Microsoft Shared Fax Driver (200x200)
Printer : Adobe PDF Converter (4000x4000, Colour)

Network Services
Network Adapter : Intel(R) Ethernet Connection I217-V (Ethernet)
Wireless Adapter : TP-LINK Wireless USB Adapter (Wifi4 (802.11n/HT), AES-CCMP, 263.5Mbps)

Operating System
Windows System : Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 6.1.7601 (Service Pack 1)
Platform Compliance : x64

Performance Enhancing Tips
Warning 2513 : TPM not detected. Some security features are unavailable.
Tip 3 : Double-click tip or press Enter while a tip is selected for more information about the tip.