SHOULD THE MASTER FADER ALWAYS STAY AT UNITY GAIN?

[soundboy69]

i'm not a pro (if you've ready any of my posts, that's an obvious statement ) but some of the threads in the duc got me re-thinking mixing. i think i was trying to master while mixing (if that makes any sense) -- attempting to record every signal as hot as possible without clipping, getting a "loud" mix, etc. after reading a lot of the duc, i'm just thinking it makes more sense to record each track with some headroom, leave the master at unity and get a well-balanced mix that doesn't distort the master fader ever (even leaving some headroom at the master fader), presuming a mastering house can sweeten & heat things up. i'm enjoying the sound of my mixes 1000% more these days.

fwiw,
steve

Hi Steve et al...
When trackng to a digital medium, you really should attempt to record your signal as hot as possible (w/o overloading). This is where any resolution loss will occur (not on playback). Then once you have captured this on disk, mix to taste. It really is like cooking (Curve, where are 'ya- help me out here ). Let's say that tracking is (in the culinary world) like getting the absolute freshest/best quality ingredients. Plugs-ins/FX are like herbs and spices (a little can, and usually does go a long way). So get all of your info/sound at tracking (don't overload). Then mix to taste. Remember if it sounds/tastes good- it is good!
Rin Tinny, gain staging man, gain staging. Gain staging applies to digital mixers as much (or more) than in the analog domain. I know (trust me), I've recorded in both. I've recorded (sometimes as a hobby, sometimes as a project studio) in the analog domain for over 15 years. I've also recorded digitally for almost 10. Digital (w/ the right converters) is now sounding pretty good to my ears. But what do I know, I'm a dinosaur!

[Transducr]

Hi Steve et al...
When trackng to a digital medium, you really should attempt to record your signal as hot as possible (w/o overloading). This is where any resolution loss will occur (not on playback). Then once you have captured this on disk, mix to taste. It really is like cooking (Curve, where are 'ya- help me out here ). Let's say that tracking is (in the culinary world) like getting the absolute freshest/best quality ingredients. Plugs-ins/FX are like herbs and spices (a little can, and usually does go a long way). So get all of your info/sound at tracking (don't overload). Then mix to taste. Remember if it sounds/tastes good- it is good!

firstly, i have to say that i agree that if it sounds good to you, it is good. also, it is very true that you will lose resolution if you don't record a signal as hot as you can without clipping.

however, it is *not* true that resolution loss does not occur on playback. what is it? approx. every 6dB below unity costs 1 bit of resolution? basically, just as if you were feeding a low level to your individual record tracks as you were tracking them, you lose resolution when delivering a low level from a fader into your 2-buss. however, there's no way around that inevitability, except (as the previous poster mentioned) adjusting your gain staging accordingly.

you *definitely* want to have your master fader at unity at all times to get the best resolution you can out of your overall mix. you should also adjust your gain staging while you mix so as not to clip the PT mix buss if you want to be prim and proper about it.

[soundboy69]

firstly, i have to say that i agree that if it sounds good to you, it is good. also, it is very true that you will lose resolution if you don't record a signal as hot as you can without clipping.

however, it is *not* true that resolution loss does not occur on playback. what is it? approx. every 6dB below unity costs 1 bit of resolution? basically, just as if you were feeding a low level to your individual record tracks as you were tracking them, you lose resolution when delivering a low level from a fader into your 2-buss. however, there's no way around that inevitability, except (as the previous poster mentioned) adjusting your gain staging accordingly.

you *definitely* want to have your master fader at unity at all times to get the best resolution you can out of your overall mix. you should also adjust your gain staging while you mix so as not to clip the PT mix buss if you want to be prim and proper about it.





[/QUOTE]

Adjusting the faders during playback, only increases/decreases the volume level of those tracks. Your recording resolution is only affected by those faders during tracking. Your sound has already been captured to disk- your resolution has already been determined. On playback when you adjust a fader, you're only turnng it up or down.

[RinnyTin]

When trackng to a digital medium, you really should attempt to record your signal as hot as possible (w/o overloading). This is where any resolution loss will occur (not on playback).

Adjusting the faders during playback, only increases/decreases the volume level of those tracks. Your recording resolution is only affected by those faders during tracking. Your sound has already been captured to disk- your resolution has already been determined. On playback when you adjust a fader, you're only turnng it up or down.

True about the tracking. Read the article, though, you're incorrect about playback resolution. What the article says is that as you lower the fader you are sending a lower-bit signal to the mix buss or outboard gear. BUT, becuase Mix systems do 48-bit math, you can lower the faders and still end up with a 24-bit sum. I assume the same principle applies to LE systems, but with 32-bit internal math.

Rin Tinny, gain staging man, gain staging. Gain staging applies to digital mixers as much (or more) than in the analog domain.

That is true. But Pro Tools is not a digital mixer. It's a computer with a mixer-like user interface. It doesn't do anything in stages.

Look, I'm the one that posted the question: can anyone PROVE to me that there's a difference in the result of lowering the track faders vs. trimming the master fader. I'm interested in finding out. I'm not convinced of anything, but making comparisons to analog or digital hardware mixers doesn't prove anything. Except that we all wish we were discussing on the Neve forum instead of the DUC.

[Matt_G]

Boy oh boy do we have some confused/misinformed protools engineers in this thread! RinnyTin has been the most informed & correct person on this thread. He has read the facts & dissected them to reveal the truth. But have any of you actually tested this out & tried to HEAR the differences yourselves?? I am surprised that Digidesign didn't harp in on this thread which is surprising as well considering 90% of their users don't know what is going on behind the scenes in Protools LE. The TDM article in the Digizine was a big help but I know there are differences between the 2 systems so a detailed explanation of LE is required...

But having said that here are the facts I know to be true...

Fact No.1) Reducing the gain or increasing the gain on any fader, Master or otherwise will effect the bit resolution.

Fact No.2) The master fader has a capacity (headroom) of 32 bits (to handle the additive bits/gain of the mixers channels)

Fact No.3) Reducing the gain on either the individual channels or the master fader will yield the same result (any gain setting above or below unity gain on ANY of the faders will result in a slight reduction in bit resolution) The reason why I prefer to use the MF is that it is easier than reducing the whole mix with a group all volume reduction. But seeing as though you have 32 bits to play with this is all very subtle unless you are massively reducing the levels. There really is little or no difference in sound quality between the 2 methods. Can you hear any?

Fact No.4) The Master Fader operates Pre-Insert/Post Fader e.g. If you have a plug-in like Waves Ren EQ for example on the MF & you notice that it is clipping on the input reducing the master fader's gain will eliminate the clipping into the plug-in. Likewise without any plug-ins on the master if it sounds distorted & is clipping the master, pulling down the MF will eliminate the clipping both visually and audibly. Again try it for yourselves (be sure to increase your monitoring volume as you reduce the MF gain so your reference isn't biased)

Fact No.5) 32bits floating point is truncated at the MF down to 24bits on output so make sure to dither to 24bits if you intend on sending your mix to a Mastering Engineer or dither to 16bits if you intend on mastering it to CD format yourself within protools. This will reduce artifacts & aliasing which makes digital audio sound harsh & cold.

Hope this clears things up for you all

[where02190]

Boy oh boy do we have some confused/misinformed protools engineers in this thread!

Yes indeed, and you are one of them.

Doen't anyone listen anymore, or do you just do it by the numbers....

There is a very obvius, audible difference when driving the channels and lowering the master vs lowering the channels and keeping the master at 0. The latter sounds better, period. Every pro engineer I've ever worked with agreed and ran their daw this way. Cumulative summation is what it's called.

However if you wish to continue to drive the hell out of your PT mixes, by all means be my guest, it's a free country.

[Anthemmusic]

Here is a quote from the Digi Administrator from Michaux's other thread about this subject:

Adjust your final output level with the master fader.

For more info read this;

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/a...il03/techtalk/

(excerpt)

".....there is no data, or information, lost while mixing completely in Pro Tools, that no signal is lost when you pull a channel fader down below unity, and that there is no difference between setting all of the channel faders to -30 with the master at unity and setting the master to -30 with the channel faders at unity. As long as you're not clipping the output and are sending the highest possible output signal before clipping, then all is well."

Like where02190 said, I also like to keep my channels lower and the Master at unity. I like the sound better. But, apparently the bit reduction idea doesn't seem to be true according to this Digi Administrator and the article he quoted.

Still the bottom line - what sounds best?.........

[Anthemmusic]

Fact No.5) 32bits floating point is truncated at the MF down to 24bits on output so make sure to dither to 24bits if you intend on sending your mix to a Mastering Engineer or dither to 16bits if you intend on mastering it to CD format yourself within protools. This will reduce artifacts & aliasing which makes digital audio sound harsh & cold.

This quote came from Matt G, and I would like another opinion, please. He apparently does mastering and I am willing to believe he knows what he's talking about. BUT, when I bounce a mix to give to the Mastering Engineer, I use no dither whatsoever on the Master Fader. I like to use as little as possible on the Master and let the high end gear do it's stuff in that area. I simply do a 24 bit, SD2 bounce. What about anybody else.....?

[bzldzl]

Adjust your final output level with the master fader.

For more info read this;

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/a...il03/techtalk/

(excerpt)

".....there is no data, or information, lost while mixing completely in Pro Tools, that no signal is lost when you pull a channel fader down below unity, and that there is no difference between setting all of the channel faders to -30 with the master at unity and setting the master to -30 with the channel faders at unity. As long as you're not clipping the output and are sending the highest possible output signal before clipping, then all is well."

THIS IS RIGHT FROM DIGI. THEY SAY THERE IS NO DIFFERNECE BETWEEN LOWERING THE MASTER FADER OR THE TRACKS FADERS, WHY DO YOU GUYS STILL FEEL THERE IS. THERE IS NO LOSS OF BIT RESOLUTION EITHER WHEN A TRACKS FADER IS REALLY LOW. YOU CAN LISTEN TO WHOEVER YOU WANT TO BUT I THINK I WILL LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE PROGRAM.

HAPPY RECORDING

[where02190]

It's not a factor of bit loss, it's a factor of overdriveing the mix buss. If you have all yoru channels pinned to 0 and your nominal levels are -18dbfs or above, you WILL overdrive the mix buss and get an inferior sound. Lowering the master fader does NOT correct this. You MUST lower the CHANNEL faders, decrease the overall level to the master buss, in order to prevernt this.

In addition, if you do have any plugins on the master fader, since the insert point on the master fader is POST FADER, any change in the master fader position will change how the plugin operates, and change the overall sound of your mix.

It's basic audio 101 guys, don't overdrive the next stage. It doesn't matter if it's analog or digital, the principles of mathematics still apply.