Timecode for location sound

[Rains]

Hello everyone,

My Digi 002/ProTools LE is supposed to come in this week but I'm new to protools. I'm getting concerned about timecode capability. Sorry if this question sounds basic but when I record DATs on location with synched timecode from the video camera can I then bring the DAT into protools along with the video and edit based on the timecode?

Thanks a lot for any guidance you can provide.

[Bastiaan]

Protools LE sint completely up to par concerning timecode. It can only use MTC (midi-timecode) but there are boxes that can convert bewteen mtc and smpte. Besides that, ptle will use the timecode info to start playing on time, and then it freewheels. It will NOT really lock on it....but then again....there are boxes that will provide a good and stable sync by using mtc and digital sync...but everything has its price...

what i would do in your situation is transferring the audio to the video before even hitting ptle. Rent a professional video-deck and a professional dat-recorder with timecode sync features and transfer the audio from all the dats to the video-tape. this way all the audio is on the position it should be.

Then edit the stuff. After that, ask if they can export as an OMF-file and use digi-translator to turn that file into a ptle session. Do your stuff there, and bounce it back to a movie. (Digitranslator will set you back for about $500, but there is a 14 day trial version available)

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Rains

It sounds like you need a TDM system.

To do what you want you'll need to digitize the picture which is done separately to the audio, and then "Spot" the video to the correct time code location in PT. You'll also want Pro Tools referenced to video (black burst) and probably in pull down mode.

You'll also need to load the audio off the 7030 (or other TC DAT) into Pro Tools for editing.... you could use MTC and SPDIF, but you'll still need the DAT machine to be referenced to video.

There is no SMPTE display in LE and you can't "spot" to SMPTE locations for editing.

IMO, having done sound for film.. you'd be better off renting a TDM system.

Rail

[Rains]

Thanks for the responses guys. Just not 100% sure if I understand clearly...

If I understand so far, I have to plug in my DAT recorder into the TC to MTC converter box and plug the box into Digi 002. So if PTLE can only read MTC I have to run the video tape through the MTC too don't I? Essentially converting all my timecode to MTC so PTLE will keep sync.

Although I'll be doing some projects for TV broadcast and possibly independent film (DV originated) the Digi002/ProTools LE is still for my project studio so the budget isn't really there for a real Pro Tools system or for renting one, unfortunately. So I just wanted to know if I can make things work with LE. I have no problem going through some laborous process and giving up efficiency/intuitiveness for the sake of getting it done until Digi decides, if they ever do, to make LE more Timecode capable. Hopefully.

But I'd rather not transfer the audio to videotape because one of the reasons it's being recorded double system in the first place instead of just feeding it to the camera tape is for higher quality, at least that's the concept. Since I'm dealing mainly with DVcam, again due to budget and the limited technical scope of the projects, something like Digibeta just for audio transfer isn't feasable cost-wise. And I don't know of any DAT deck with firewire out so transferring to DVcam would have to be analog. Trying to keeps things in the digital domain.

And how about when the picture is cut on something like Adobe Premiere and then the soundtrack and score audio need to be worked on in LE. Can go by the picture only but it would be useful to have timecode reference in LE. Could just digitize with a window burn in the first place but I'd rather keep the picture clean. All window burns I've seen in the 4:3 aspect video world are supered on some portion of the picture. It would just be very useful to work with stable and synced time reference through the the software, MTC or otherwise, instead of only having a window burn to go by.

I haven't actually worked with double system sound before. I've been doing video for quite a while but always with sound married to tape. My grasp on how to go about working with double system is just from what I'm able to figure out.

So any suggestions on a good MTC/SMPTE box?

Thanks again.

- Rains

[Rail Jon Rogut]

Sorry you don't like my answer.. You have to realize, Digi left out the features you're asking for specifically so you wouldn't be able to do what you want to do. Otherwise all the music editors and dialog editors would be using 002's.

You can't record picture and audio mated together into PT.. you have to digitize the picture using Premiere (or something similar), conform the picture then import it and "Spot" it to the correct SMPTE location in PT. You then have to transfer the audio from your TC DAT into PT while referenced to black burst.. and then keep the system referenced to black burst (and usually pulling down the sample rate) while working.

You could try doing some work with a MOTU DTP and clocking off the SPDIF input.. but it has problems of its own. The best idea I have is to use a TDM system for one day to import and spot the video files and the audio, which is a $400 rental... then use a DTP to video reference your 001/002 via SPDIF for the rest of your work.

Rail

[Bastiaan]

It can be done....I've done it...

But the video must be edited on a non-linear system, and you only can transfer 2 tracks. Rent a pro-DV-recorder and a pro-dat-recorder with sync-abilities. Transfer the audio to the DV-tapes (or digital clones of the originals...). Pro DV-recorder have digital inputs for the audio, and pro-datrecorders can sync to blackburst.

Now you have the video and audio in sync. Now let them go and edit the video.

Then ask them to split the project up in different tracks, and create some handlelength, and export those tracks, and a quicktime video (lores) for you to look at...

In protools, you import all the tracks, and the quicktime video. You can do your stuff now withpout the need for timecode. You have some reference ofcourse (hh:mm:ss:miliseconds), or just have the timecode burned into the quicktime-movie.

When you are done, you bounce the mix to the quicktime-movie, and hand it over to the video-editor. He can import your mix into his video-editor and bounce it back to tape or dvd, or whatever medium is used.

If you can get your hands on a mac with ptle 5.1 or higher installed you could try something else (and better...). Get them to download the free OMF-tool, and ask the video-editor to export as an omf. This will create one large file with the video and all the audio. The advantage is that you get all their edits with some handlelength, so it is easier for you to see what they did.

Use the omf-tool to create a protools session. Open that one on the mac, and do a "save session copy in" with the compatibilitybox checked and "copy all audio-files" checked, in the format of .wav or .aiff. Burn that to a cd, and open it on your own system, and go to work...

Or use digitranslator, wich will run on a winXP machine, but will cost around $500....(and can do more then the omftool...), or just work really fast...you get a free 14 day trial with the digitranslator.

[espron]

I agree with Bastaan here. If all you want to do is working on video or DV-originated material ( i.e no 24fps film) you dont need to lock your PTLE system or your dat machine to video black.

You did use a slate when it was recorded, right?
If so, when your video editor has a final cut, he can simply give you several passes of the finished video, so that pass one consists of dialog panned hard right and left to create some handles. Pass two includes music and so on.

Assuming you have a two-pop at the beginning at the soundtrack and in picture, you can then digitize the video material and sync the audio to the two-pop. Even easier would be to have the different passes delivered as quicktime movies, as you can then import the audio directly from the movies.

Good luck and hope this helps!

Espen

[gerax]

Hi

I think the "right" way to do it would be to use a TDM system and Blackburst reference as told above, anyway I managed to do all of the post work for an independant movie some 3 months ago, with my 001 system and without the help of timecode. I recorded all of the production sound as well on a non timecode DAT, just making sure that the sample rate always matched to that of the DV cam recorder (48KHz), and just had one of the assistant directors give me the correct take number which I wrote down on my personal "video track sheet", toghether with the ABS time from my DAT (keepnig copious notes of everything). I fed back to the camera one "reference audio" track from my mixer for the director to listen and for post reference.

Once in Post I asked the picture editor for a .AVI of each finished reel (or temp when it wasn't locked), where each scene and take was written on the picture. Then in Pro Tools I just had to fly in the correct take recorded from the DAT, spot it to my reference video and audio track and everything was in perfect sync. The only drawback is that if you use an external device to lock Pro Tools to (I tried using a second PC as a video playback device feeding MTC and Spdif clock) the sync is only accurate for short periods of time, say 20 minutes or so, and having everything inside one machine is a far better solution.

Hope this is helpful

L.G.

[Rains]

Thanks very much guys. I probably need to get my hands on the system before I fully grasp the best process for my application but it's definitely good to hear people having done this with LE. A lot of my work will be dealing with long "takes", more like event coverage, that last anywhere from 15min to 1hour nonstop. Am I right in thinking that if I manually sync up the audio track to the video, with slate or speech to talking heads, that then the whole thing will stay in sync? I ask because I was told that there is no drift like in a tape machine when you work with digital aka "digital lock". Makes sense since there's no mechanical device. I know in Premiere this is easily done although sometimes it's a real pain when a clapper wasn't used and after an hour of making separate video and audio track edits from multiple cameras something gets out of synch somewhere and you have to find the footage or audio for it visually. Another idea suggested by a Digi product specialist today was manually typing in my own time in the LE time window at the beginning of the session to match the time code burn-in window on the video, manually synching the two clocks and letting things roll. But this I don't think will work because LE counts in milliseconds (1/100th of a sec) as it's smallest increment and timecode counts in frames (1/30th of a sec) so wouldn't there be an inevitable loss of synch between the two clocks as the effect of the difference accumulates? Not to mention if you have to deal with drop-frame TC.

[espron]

If you allign your video and audio tracks using a slate or a blop as your reference, you will stay in perfect sync, period. It will not matter if you have a take that is one or five hours long, the sync will stay solid. Basically it will work just like you described working in Premiere.

As for PTLE displaying time in min:sec:ms, this does not in any way affect sync, it is just the format of time that PTLE displays.

Gerax : I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do this, all you need is a understanding of what is needed to achievie accurate sync. Using a TDM system locked to video black will not give any more accurate results as long as you are not working with film-originated material. Luckily, after video support is finally supported on the PC, this whole situation is now much easier to deal with.

Exept that a TDM system would give you a true TC display of course!

All the best

Espen