Legacy for puzzle for ProTools 11.0.1

[JBT888]

Setting aside any perspective that involves getting a new interface and a new version of Pro Tools, here’s my situation:

I’ve got:

Digi003 rack
Pro Tools 11.0.1
Mid-2010 Six Core Mac Pro

What would be theeee most stable Mac OS to run on said Mac Pro w/ that version of PT?

BONUS QUESTION: What would be the most stable Pro Tools Driver to run with the set up?

I’ve been all over the OS driver map for longer than I’d care to admit trying to get it all to work. Any input is much appreciated.

[Darryl Ramm]

Hi Welcome to DUC.

What would be theeee most stable Mac OS to run on said Mac Pro w/ that version of PT?

Start with officially supported releases (only focus on the major releases, minor updates to OS X are usually fine).

https://avidtech.my.salesforce-sites...tibility-Chart

[QUOTE]
BONUS QUESTION: What would be the most stable Pro Tools Driver to run with the set up?
[QUOTE]

You mean 003R driver. The answer is almost always the latest one available. https://avidtech.my.salesforce-sites...02-003-Drivers

The 003 can be got to work on later macOS releases than officially supported, but ultimately the 003 will limit your options running on more recent macOS releases.

And you triangulate all those with what OS X versions your Mac will run. Typical just being on the latest stuff you can that is officially supported is the place to start.

---

But what exact problems are you having? You are likely to make more progress focusing on solving specific problems than hoping to identity a golden combination of Pro Tools and OS X. More specs for the Mac might also help, how much memory, what audio and sample drives etc.

If the system is just a mess start over doing a clean install of the latest compatible macOS version and get the latest compatible Pro Tools 11 installed and just test with that at first.

Many problems with Pro Tools are caused by plugins and you should be testing with all .aaxplugin files removed to confirm if the problem you are seeing is not caused by plugins. Just having a plugin installed on the system can cause all kinds of problems even without it being used. That's another whole dimension of the problem matrix in terms of OS and Pro Tools compatibility.

You might not want to hear about upgrading, but if you can't solve your problems any other way you may have to. In particular there were some systemic AAX processing limitations addressed in one of the Pro Tools 2018 releases. So if you are having AAE CPU errors especially on deeply chained plugins processing your option might be to upgrade. You also might want to upgrade so you can use the newer Freeze/Commit to offload CPU processing. Or the newer disk cache in case your old Cheesegrater has disk performance issues.

[JBT888]

[QUOTE=Darryl Ramm;2685410]Hi Welcome to DUC.



Start with officially supported releases (only focus on the major releases, minor updates to OS X are usually fine).

https://avidtech.my.salesforce-sites...tibility-Chart

[QUOTE]
BONUS QUESTION: What would be the most stable Pro Tools Driver to run with the set up?

You mean 003R driver. The answer is almost always the latest one available. https://avidtech.my.salesforce-sites...02-003-Drivers

The 003 can be got to work on later macOS releases than officially supported, but ultimately the 003 will limit your options running on more recent macOS releases.

And you triangulate all those with what OS X versions your Mac will run. Typical just being on the latest stuff you can that is officially supported is the place to start.

---

But what exact problems are you having? You are likely to make more progress focusing on solving specific problems than hoping to identity a golden combination of Pro Tools and OS X. More specs for the Mac might also help, how much memory, what audio and sample drives etc.

If the system is just a mess start over doing a clean install of the latest compatible macOS version and get the latest compatible Pro Tools 11 installed and just test with that at first.

Many problems with Pro Tools are caused by plugins and you should be testing with all .aaxplugin files removed to confirm if the problem you are seeing is not caused by plugins. Just having a plugin installed on the system can cause all kinds of problems even without it being used. That's another whole dimension of the problem matrix in terms of OS and Pro Tools compatibility.

You might not want to hear about upgrading, but if you can't solve your problems any other way you may have to. In particular there were some systemic AAX processing limitations addressed in one of the Pro Tools 2018 releases. So if you are having AAE CPU errors especially on deeply chained plugins processing your option might be to upgrade. You also might want to upgrade so you can use the newer Freeze/Commit to offload CPU processing. Or the newer disk cache in case your old Cheesegrater has disk performance issues.

I will definitely go thru and deactivate all the plugins.

I have three concerns here:

1. Thanks to an expired registration, as far as I can tell, I’m STUCK with 11.0.1, the version that came with my disc pack. So I can’t upgrade to a later version of 11. This makes me nervous about which driver I install—because as far as I know, The driver updates are tied to particular version updates, right? So the driver and OS I use MUST both be compatible with 11.0.1. That’s my first concern

2. Second, PT11 demonstrates the follow Issues: randomly freezing when ProTools is open. Freezing when I try to save ProTools after recording a track. HOWEVER…

3. The machine ALSO freezes now when PT11 is NOT open. Sometimes it restarts to a black screen. I just did a full repair and erase of the machine’s hard drive, installed Mountain Lion 10.8.5 and it’s STILL doing this. Restart or boot up: black screen. Leave the machine for an hour or more, come back, restart, boots up fine. But will it freeze AGAIN? Maybe, eventually.

First two issues suggest PT11 issues, but the third points squarely to issues with the machine itself. And I suspect the old school spinning hard drive. That’s why I’m considering replacing it with SSD.

OR I may have to simply replace the computer.

I’d be okay with that, and keeping the 003 and PT11.

But if I go that route I’ll want to know which machine (a Mini? Another Pro? Macbooo Pro??) will play nicest with the set up, and which OS to install

Long story short, while I would apply the latest-is-best philosophy and have used that approach in the past on this machine—I was previously running Pro Tools 11.3.2 over top of Yosemite 10.10.5, but I can’t revert to that because I no longer have 11.3.2 available to me.)

And, per that chart you provided, PT 11.0.1 won’t run on Yosemite (which is the newest OS ranked as compatible for any version of 11.)


I am now hamstrung by the fact that I’m stuck with ProTools 11.0.1, at least as far as I understand.

Does that make sense? I’m a guitar player so typically I like things with like one knob and an ON switch.

I’ll post full machine specs when I get home today. Thanks for your reply!

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by JBT888

1. Thanks to an expired registration, as far as I can tell, I’m STUCK with 11.0.1, the version that came with my disc pack. So I can’t upgrade to a later version of 11. This makes me nervous about which driver I install—because as far as I know, The driver updates are tied to particular version updates, right? So the driver and OS I use MUST both be compatible with 11.0.1. That’s my first concern

Nope. A Pro Tools 11 license allows you to run all versions of Pro Tools 11. Things are different now, but that is how Pro Tools 11 licensing worked/works. I'm not following what you mean by an expired registration. A registration that has been used? You should not be messing with registrations if this has already been done, you should have a licenses on an iLok, ideally tied to an iLok account you own and that licenses all versions of Pro Tools 11. You don't reactivate a license, you just have your iLok dongle connected.

I'm trying to understand why you are having licensing problems here: Did you purchase all this gear used from somebody else? If so did they officially transfer the Pro Tools iLok license to you so it is now associated with your iLok account? Do you own the iLok account the iLok dongle is associated with?

2. Second, PT11 demonstrates the follow Issues: randomly freezing when ProTools is open. Freezing when I try to save ProTools after recording a track. HOWEVER…

3. The machine ALSO freezes now when PT11 is NOT open. Sometimes it restarts to a black screen. I just did a full repair and erase of the machine’s hard drive, installed Mountain Lion 10.8.5 and it’s STILL doing this. Restart or boot up: black screen. Leave the machine for an hour or more, come back, restart, boots up fine. But will it freeze AGAIN? Maybe, eventually.

First two issues suggest PT11 issues, but the third points squarely to issues with the machine itself. And I suspect the old school spinning hard drive. That’s why I’m considering replacing it with SSD.

Right. If you want to keep the Mac Pro Focus on solving the computer problem first. Get it as rock solid with other programs and then check with Pro Tools. It might be the HDD, it might be memory, or CPU, or.... Disk errors will often produce console log errors, or be findable by doing file systems fsck or complete hard drive diagnostic scans (Disk Utility). Other tests might find memory problems but they are harder, you should be looking for help elsewhere on diagnosing these problems.

If you are wanting to get the most performance/extend the life of a classic Cheesegrater I would go with NVMe SSD, using a modern Samsung 980 or 990 PCIe 4 SSD with a switch based card because the Mac only has PCIe 2 slots and the card to do some lane aggregation for the much faster SSD. I and others have written about that on DUC in the past. It's nice in that you can use the boot SD for sessions and samples, nut all that requires upgrading PROMS and macOS to a much more recent version. Which is part of the slippery slope here. Otherwise you can use much slower SATA SSD, the motherboard/disk bay SATA is only SATA II, you can use a SATA III PCIe card to improve that but then have more cabling to deal with.. all this stuff was discussed to death on DUC and elsewhere in the past (now becoming distant past).

OR I may have to simply replace the computer.

I’d be okay with that, and keeping the 003 and PT11.

But if I go that route I’ll want to know which machine (a Mini? Another Pro? Macbooo Pro??) will play nicest with the set up, and which OS to install

Modern/current Macs will not run Pro Tools 11 or support a 003. All current Macs use Apple silicon, and that often gives impressive performance gains over previous Intel based macs. Apple Silicon based Macs require drivers ported or rewritten specifically for Apple Silicon, that has not and will never be done for the 003 driver. In addition to that even if Macs were still Intel based there is a bunch of operating system changes that made/make it hard for the 003 driver, and especially Apple is killing off system extension based audio drivers and the old 003 driver is an example of that. And Pro Tools 11 likely just will not run on any recent macOS release on any Intel or Apple Silicon based Mac. And even if you buy an older used Intel based mac they are limited to the minimum OS X/macOS version they can run. The "Preinstalled" version listed for a Mac on ttps://everymac.com is a good rough guide to that. You need to use that info to find a Mac old enough to run the OS X version needed for Pro Tools 11. But worrying about Pro Tools 11 to buy a Mac is the tail wagging the dog. An upgrade from Pro Tools 11 standard to the current Pro Tools Studio perpetual license costs $199 with a year of support and product updates, or maybe Artist or even Intro will do what you need (I have no idea). Intel based Macs will stop receiving macOS and Pro Tools updates at some point, so it's likely time to just get on Apple silicon.

If you are just working with guitar recordings heck you might even be able to use Pro Tools Intro or Artist on a relatively low-end MacBook Pro or Mac Mini, and you can pick up USB or Thunderbolt interfaces starting at a few hundred dollars. A current Mac is likely to be the largest cost here.

[snip]
I am now hamstrung by the fact that I’m stuck with ProTools 11.0.1, at least as far as I understand.
[snip]

No you should not be stuck on 11.0.1 as I say above. Use the compatibility matrix as a starting point. If you want to keep the Mac Pro get stuff workings on that. With care and other advice from folks you might move outside the official matrix, but when fighting problems it's best to just be conservative and follow the matrix.

If you want stuff that mostly just works, dealing with all this older stuff is not the place to be. May be a good idea to ask for suggestions about what the latest/best/most affordable options are for doing what you need to do (for the interface describe what that is, how many mic line inputs/outputs etc. and S/PDIF or ADAT connections etc. you need). Or if you have a budget ask for suggestions what are good choices. At least you should have a cost in your head for what that would cost vs. how much you might be putting into the Mac Pro setup... and even if you do all that you still end up with Pro Tools 11 which is lacking quite a few nice things vs. current Pro Tools. And you get no support from Avid and reduced help here if you have problems on Pro Tools 11 vs. being on a current release where many of us are.

[basslik]

I had the exact setup for for years and you have what you need to get things done recording wise. i still have the same setup, except now I'm on a dual CPU.



I suspect it's your spinner drive. snag a OWC SSD and your machine will fly compared to the spinner.


Although you did not mention how much ram you have ?






Also clear your NVram. Boot up and hold down CMD+OPTION+P+R until you hear three chimes. Chimes in between are long, so be patient.


Also there is a great read regarding these older Mac's and the VSS Store and NVram. do a ROM dump, it's a free utility.
A Mac Pro that the garbage collection is not working anymore will have less than 1/3 of Free Space Full Size available, less than 22000 bytes available. Any less than this and you usually start having problems and could even brick your Mac Pro.


Also
How to Use Apple Diagnostics on an Intel Mac

1. Press the power button to turn on your Mac, then immediately press and hold the D key on your keyboard as your Mac starts up.
2. Release the D key when you see a progress bar or you're asked to choose a language.

I'm still chugging along on my 2010 Mac Pro and just installed Monterey with PT 2023.9. using my trusty Digi003 rack signature mod, and a Digi 003 console.


Great machines still If you do decide to upgrade (CHEAPLY). Move to High Sierra with a newer version of Pro Tools. I'm still on these old dinosaur's, but they run great for little money. NVMe drives a game changer.



( ULTIMATE ) UPGRADE, A metal card, with a a firmware update and run any version of Pro Tools up to Mac OS Monterey, and some reports on the Mac Forum running Ventura with PT.

[JBT888]

Originally Posted by basslik

I had the exact setup for for years and you have what you need to get things done recording wise. i still have the same setup, except now I'm on a dual CPU.



I suspect it's your spinner drive. snag a OWC SSD and your machine will fly compared to the spinner.


Although you did not mention how much ram you have ?




Also clear your NVram. Boot up and hold down CMD+OPTION+P+R until you hear three chimes. Chimes in between are long, so be patient.


Also there is a great read regarding these older Mac's and the VSS Store and NVram. do a ROM dump, it's a free utility.
A Mac Pro that the garbage collection is not working anymore will have less than 1/3 of Free Space Full Size available, less than 22000 bytes available. Any less than this and you usually start having problems and could even brick your Mac Pro.


Also
How to Use Apple Diagnostics on an Intel Mac

1. Press the power button to turn on your Mac, then immediately press and hold the D key on your keyboard as your Mac starts up.
2. Release the D key when you see a progress bar or you're asked to choose a language.

I'm still chugging along on my 2010 Mac Pro and just installed Monterey with PT 2023.9. using my trusty Digi003 rack signature mod, and a Digi 003 console.


Great machines still If you do decide to upgrade (CHEAPLY). Move to High Sierra with a newer version of Pro Tools. I'm still on these old dinosaur's, but they run great for little money. NVMe drives a game changer.



( ULTIMATE ) UPGRADE, A metal card, with a a firmware update and run any version of Pro Tools up to Mac OS Monterey, and some reports on the Mac Forum running Ventura with PT.

This is amazing information. Thank you. I’m taking it to a tech tomorrow to diagnose if the issue is indeed the drive. If it is, he’s going to drop in an SSD and then I’ll reset the NVram and everything else you outline.

[JBT888]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Nope. A Pro Tools 11 license allows you to run all versions of Pro Tools 11. Things are different now, but that is how Pro Tools 11 licensing worked/works. I'm not following what you mean by an expired registration. A registration that has been used? You should not be messing with registrations if this has already been done, you should have a licenses on an iLok, ideally tied to an iLok account you own and that licenses all versions of Pro Tools 11. You don't reactivate a license, you just have your iLok dongle connected.

When I log into my Avid account it says I have to pay 199.00 to upgrade to any other versions or PT11.

I’ll log into ilok and see what I’ve got to work with there. I assumed it was all done thru Avid’s account portal.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I'm trying to understand why you are having licensing problems here: Did you purchase all this gear used from somebody else? If so did they officially transfer the Pro Tools iLok license to you so it is now associated with your iLok account? Do you own the iLok account the iLok dongle is associated with?

I bought this ProTools on eBay and did indeed have the license transferred over properly. And at the time I upgraded versions (and OS versions) trying to find a sweet spot where everything was stable. After years of frustration, I moved my synth instruments (including the beastly Komplete) over to a MacBook Air (where it all finally works just fine) and am initiating a new day where the Mac Pro is ONLY for recording and the synths are all ONLY on the Air and recorded like regular instruments.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

Right. If you want to keep the Mac Pro Focus on solving the computer problem first. Get it as rock solid with other programs and then check with Pro Tools. It might be the HDD, it might be memory, or CPU, or.... Disk errors will often produce console log errors, or be findable by doing file systems fsck or complete hard drive diagnostic scans (Disk Utility). Other tests might find memory problems but they are harder, you should be looking for help elsewhere on diagnosing these problems.

If you are wanting to get the most performance/extend the life of a classic Cheesegrater I would go with NVMe SSD, using a modern Samsung 980 or 990 PCIe 4 SSD with a switch based card because the Mac only has PCIe 2 slots and the card to do some lane aggregation for the much faster SSD. I and others have written about that on DUC in the past. It's nice in that you can use the boot SD for sessions and samples, nut all that requires upgrading PROMS and macOS to a much more recent version. Which is part of the slippery slope here. Otherwise you can use much slower SATA SSD, the motherboard/disk bay SATA is only SATA II, you can use a SATA III PCIe card to improve that but then have more cabling to deal with.. all this stuff was discussed to death on DUC and elsewhere in the past (now becoming distant past).



Modern/current Macs will not run Pro Tools 11 or support a 003. All current Macs use Apple silicon, and that often gives impressive performance gains over previous Intel based macs. Apple Silicon based Macs require drivers ported or rewritten specifically for Apple Silicon, that has not and will never be done for the 003 driver. In addition to that even if Macs were still Intel based there is a bunch of operating system changes that made/make it hard for the 003 driver, and especially Apple is killing off system extension based audio drivers and the old 003 driver is an example of that. And Pro Tools 11 likely just will not run on any recent macOS release on any Intel or Apple Silicon based Mac. And even if you buy an older used Intel based mac they are limited to the minimum OS X/macOS version they can run. The "Preinstalled" version listed for a Mac on ttps://everymac.com is a good rough guide to that. You need to use that info to find a Mac old enough to run the OS X version needed for Pro Tools 11. But worrying about Pro Tools 11 to buy a Mac is the tail wagging the dog. An upgrade from Pro Tools 11 standard to the current Pro Tools Studio perpetual license costs $199 with a year of support and product updates, or maybe Artist or even Intro will do what you need (I have no idea). Intel based Macs will stop receiving macOS and Pro Tools updates at some point, so it's likely time to just get on Apple silicon.

Right on. Game plan is to take the tower to a tech tomorrow and get this resolved. I suspect the issue has been the computer now, and that once it’s stable I’ll be in pretty good shape. I’ve been at this since Wednesday of last week. I do know this was all much easier 2003-2014.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

If you are just working with guitar recordings heck you might even be able to use Pro Tools Intro or Artist on a relatively low-end MacBook Pro or Mac Mini, and you can pick up USB or Thunderbolt interfaces starting at a few hundred dollars. A current Mac is likely to be the largest cost here.

I’m a guitar player but I record full band demos when I write and then hand that over to the band, so I’m playing all the instruments. Sometimes I’ll also add instruments at home to tracks recorded and finished in proper studios. I like pro tools, I’ve been using it since the late 90s, and I have no interest in switching to anything else. So that’s my situation.

I specify that I’m a guitar player to illustrate my fundamentally simple mind. I’m not into math, all this computer stuff makes me queasy and it’s not fun. I just want to be able to sit down and work when I have an idea, and not torment around with this driver or that or things not working. I’ve been enjoying the hell out of working on my 424 this year but now I’m at the stage where I need more tracks and to start sharing the sessions out with other players.

For ages I used an 002 and an even older G5 tower and it worked well. Slow, not plug in friendly, but I did a ton of good work on that. In 2017 I thought I’d upgrade the stuff and experience a bump in speed and features. That has not worked out as planned.

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

No you should not be stuck on 11.0.1 as I say above. Use the compatibility matrix as a starting point. If you want to keep the Mac Pro get stuff workings on that. With care and other advice from folks you might move outside the official matrix, but when fighting problems it's best to just be conservative and follow the matrix.

If you want stuff that mostly just works, dealing with all this older stuff is not the place to be. May be a good idea to ask for suggestions about what the latest/best/most affordable options are for doing what you need to do (for the interface describe what that is, how many mic line inputs/outputs etc. and S/PDIF or ADAT connections etc. you need). Or if you have a budget ask for suggestions what are good choices. At least you should have a cost in your head for what that would cost vs. how much you might be putting into the Mac Pro setup... and even if you do all that you still end up with Pro Tools 11 which is lacking quite a few nice things vs. current Pro Tools. And you get no support from Avid and reduced help here if you have problems on Pro Tools 11 vs. being on a current release where many of us are.

I’m trying to find a set up where I don’t have to buy a new rack and don’t have to buy a new Pro Tools. So yeah, fixing the Tower is priority here. I believe I can get it working and squeeze some good years of service out of it.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by JBT888

When I log into my Avid account it says I have to pay 199.00 to upgrade to any other versions or PT11.

I'd bet good money it does not say that and instead says "later versions of Pro Tools". If not its a bug and please post a closely cropped screen shot here so that bug can get fixed.

iLok will just show you have a Pro Tools 11 license. There are no licenses to specific releases of Pro Tools 11, all Pro Tools 11 releases use the same license. Avid could not restrict you here even if they wanted to. Things changed at Pro Tools 12.6 with "release limits" build into the licenses.

In you Avid.com "My Products" section I would hope Avid has provided you with the last version of Pro Tools 11. But Pro Tools downloads in general are not well provided for in such old versions as Pro Tools 11. If you don't have more recent downloads available then you should ask and support can hopefully help you out. But work out exactly what version you need to ask for. Especially with dealing with such old stuff you should have your own archive of installers, but yes i get that you've been utterly confused about what versions you are licensed to run.

[JBT888]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I'd bet good money it does not say that and instead says "later versions of Pro Tools". If not its a bug and please post a closely cropped screen shot here so that bug can get fixed.

iLok will just show you have a Pro Tools 11 license. There are no licenses to specific releases of Pro Tools 11, all Pro Tools 11 releases use the same license. Avid could not restrict you here even if they wanted to. Things changed at Pro Tools 12.6 with "release limits" build into the licenses.

In you Avid.com "My Products" section I would hope Avid has provided you with the last version of Pro Tools 11. But Pro Tools downloads in general are not well provided for in such old versions as Pro Tools 11. If you don't have more recent downloads available then you should ask and support can hopefully help you out. But work out exactly what version you need to ask for. Especially with dealing with such old stuff you should have your own archive of installers, but yes i get that you've been utterly confused about what versions you are licensed to run.

Thanks, this is great info.

I remember going a step up from Yosemite back in 2017 and then retreating back to 10.10.5 and getting PT to more or less work. Which makes sense, looking at the PT compatibility chart as 11 apparently tops out at 11.3.2 and Yosemite 10.10.5

I’ll submit a ticket to Avid and request a set of the 11 updates.

I’ll give Mountain Lion and the early 11 a spin and if it still gives me trouble with a new SSD I’ll bring it back up to that.

[Darryl Ramm]

Have you checked in your Avid.com account "My Products" section under the big Pro Tools pull down what versions of Pro Tools it has for you to download.

You can't create a support case/ticket unless you have a update/support plan or want to purchase an ASC (avid support code).

What I'd suggest you do is post here clearly the *exact* version of Pro Tools 11 you want and hopefully a wonderful Avid support person on DUC can help you out.