foley and effects LCR placement

[viaspiaggia]

hi all. i know this has been touched on before, but i'm digging in to my first actual feature in awhile, and thought i'd throw this out there for opinions.

dialog is Center, pfx will be hard Center to match, amb music etc i know where they go.

my question is on Foley and hard effects. i tend to put Foley 100% Center, so it matches aurally with the character it is for. car bys in the mid or background i'm putting in LR, no Center at all, to keep the center channel cleaner. close up doors i'm putting LR, phantom center, for the same reason.

where i'm getting a little messed up is things like fist fights. i have dialog, some minimal pfx, a few tracks of stock punches, kicks, body falls, cloth, and some Foley for the missed punches, arm grabs, etc.

when i put the library stuff, for instance, in LR, phantom center, and everything else hard C, its sounding really odd - the impacts in the various layers are in sync but sound too spread out between the phantom and hard center. but if i put ALL this stuff hard C, that channel is going to be quite crowded!

i'm in a smallish room, not a real stage, and i've been doing TV long enough that my ears have lost that Stage Sound. i'm not sure how much that environment will affect the perceived disconnect with phantom and hard C.

let me know your philosophy of using the center channel, and what you might do with these specific examples.

THANKS!

adam

[JKD99]

I'd keep it in the center for the punches and such; they sound very unnatural in stereo with a phantom center (as you've discovered). If you want to bleed them a little to the sides, that's one thing, but putting them in a phantom center makes them lose all the impact.

Having said that, something like an explo sounds GREAT that wide, be sure to add a center element there as well.

Good luck

[Mario C]

.... to keep the center channel cleaner....


....but if i put ALL this stuff hard C, that channel is going to be quite crowded!


adam

Why do you want the center channel less crowded? Are there technical or procedural reasons?

I hope this doesn't sound snarky; this is a real question. I would think if you have a real center channel, you wouldn't want to play with phantom center. But then, what do I know

[subwoof]

I second what Joe says. I personally would not put "hard" FX such as door slams or anything of that nature that happens on camera as a phantom L/R. That works for TV, but unless you are sitting dead center in the theater and the L and R speakers are perfectly balanced, the sound will be pulled to one side of the screen or the other. Also, there are times where you might want to pan a piece of dialog or matching Foley off to one side or the other if the character is off camera, and you want to draw the audience's attention to that fact. That can be very effective.

It's all about telling the story with your mix. So there are not so many hard and fast rules as there used to be, but there are some general guidelines, like keeping most of the dialog and foley and hard FX in the center speaker unless it happens off camera. You can keep the music and background FX wide if you want to give yourself more room in the center.

Go out and rent some DVD's of the type of show you are mixing, and run it in your mix room. Listen to what other film mixers are putting in the center, L/R and surrounds by muting or soloing playback channels. I have learned a lot from top-notch mixers by doing this!

Good luck

Mike

[Starcrash]

So there are not so many hard and fast rules as there used to be, but there are some general guidelines, like keeping most of the dialog and foley and hard FX in the center speaker unless it happens off camera.

If there is one rule, it's that you should avoid panning the Foley if that character is speaking. You don't want a character's feet to run away without him! If there is no dialogue then you can get away with more panning. The exception is off-screen panned dialogue, in which case the Foley would match.

Definitely keep punches and slams in the center or at least panned across an LCR buss. Never phantom. I learned that one the hard way. You get major Hass effect and it will sound like the punch is only coming out of the speaker closest to you.

Panning Foley and hard FX can be a bit tricky on a workstation with a small display. It's a lot easier on a dub stage with speakers behind the screen. Whether or not to pan also becomes more apparent on a dub stage. This one of the reasons they are useful.

Another observation, animated films tend to use a lot more panning. I've worked on a few that had some pretty wild panning (including dialogue).

[Rick Sanchez]

I'd have to third everything above. I think we've all made the mistake of using stereo FX when a mono right up the center would do or overusing the pan pots.

Joe's little trick of using a hard center explosion for the impact along with a L/R explosion for the spread and debris works really well and Pascal's "Keep the foley with the person" rule is a must. Foley is usually so low in the mix that having it in the center channel shouldn't take up too much space. Group foley for crowd scenes I ususally spread a bit, but other than that I keep it simple.

Pascal...good job on Indiana. Very entertaining and fun film.

[viaspiaggia]

hello all, thanks for the good thoughts and tips.

i think i was hesitant to put everything (or at least a lot) hard center for no other reason than wanting to use all my channels! but i guess if the director put all the action right there center screen, then all my sound must follow...

i will put all this to good use - now to go spend a few minutes resetting those center channel dials!

thanks all.

adam