002R or Mix 24

[fabpab]

Just wondering your thoughts...
Is it worth me buying
A TDM protools 24 mix second hand
or
a new 002R RTAS system?

I cant afford any of the HD systems!!

[Chris Cavell]

I use both a 002 and a 24 Mix Plus system. The sound quality of the 002 is far better (5 years technology increase in converters). The 002 has 18 I/O, and a 24 Mix (not mix plus) will only have 16 I/O. The 002 can go up to 96k, the 24 mix only 48k. The 24 Mix systems are listed on the digi site as discontinued items, but the 002 is definitely going to be around for at least a couple years. Search around, I think just yesterday or the day before I detailed many of the software differences b/w TDM and LE, which may lead you to chose LE over TDM on a 24 mix system, but probably not over TDM on an HD system.

[fabpab]

cheers chris....
now i am confused... i realy liked the idea of a TDM system as the pluggins are not host based..
so a 002R is a better choice these days?

[xeetstreet]

If you build one of the Allenstein machines, you'll have more processing power than you'll be able to handle. (Well, maybe not, but close!)

[Chris Cavell]

The 24 mix systems' cards have 6 dsp chips per card: 3 A chips, 2 B chips, and a C chip if I recall correctly. The mix engine itself already eats up an entire A chip, or 2 if you switch to more than 32 voices. These chips vary in "quality": A's being the best, and C's being the worst. Waves plugs for instance will only run on A chips, same thing with TC|Works plugs. While these chips can usually hold more than one plug, you often cannot have more than one brand of plug, sometimes not even more than one type of plug of a particular brand on a chip at a time! Some plugs, like good verbs will eat up half that A chip with just one instance, a second instance and you're all out of good DSP if you're dealing with more than 32 tracks. Pretty much the only plugs I've found that will run on the C chips are some of the digirack plugs. The only way a 24|Mix system is really worth a snot now is if you put it on a really bad ***** dual cpu computer dedicating an entire cpu to PT. This will let you load gobs of RTAS plugs (usually way more than on LE b/c the mix engine is being taken care of by 'A' chips). Unfortunately, RTAS plugs have all sorts of rules/restriction as to where they can be placed on TDM systems that we're not subject to in LE, and all RTAS plugs on a TDM system are automatically disabled during tracking. You're also dealing with a fixed 24 bit mix engine on TDM systems where LE uses a floating 32 bit engine. The converters in the 002 are IMO way way way better than the 888's, but the 888's are no slouch either IMO, plenty of hits have been turned out with them and they still serve me well. One key factor that you should consider is that a stock 24|Mix system only comes with a core card and no farm card. The core card alone will only support 16 channels of I/O, where the LE systems have 18.

Now, I could go into some of the advantages of the added features and tools that are in TDM that aren't in LE, but I don't think they outweigh the comparisons I've just made. Don't forget that with a 002 you can go up to 96k too!

I should point out, before you get the wrong Idea about all TDM systems, that most of the things I've mentioned that make a 002 more appealing to my eyes than a 24|Mix setup dissappear if talking about HD.

It is certainly my opinion today (based on ease of use, portability, technology, capability, and my EARS), having and regularly using both a TDM 24|Mix Plus setup and a 002, that the 002 is the better option...perhaps two 002's synced would be even more attractive (36 I/O minus however many you fly back to the master system), or perhaps get yourself the DV option and maybe Avid too instead of a second 002.

Well, there's my opinion on it, with a whole bunch of facts to go with it. I hope it helps.

(about the restrictions placed on RTAS plugs on TDM systems, they're listed in your reference guide, or you can look to some posts a few days ago where I detailed them all.)

[Chris Cavell]

oops, I forgot to mention, the more you stuff you add to your mixer, the more dsp it will eat up: aux sends, aux tracks, master faders...even the most normal kinds of setups will often send the mix engine into a second dsp chip, and the mix engine dsp chips cannot be shared with plugs either.

[fabpab]

WOW.. Cheers chris.. thats a very detailed review...

Yea.. i am now thinking... is it worth me upgrading to the same bit rate as im using now....

i may aswell upgrade to a 002R and then use 24-96K for tracking bands...
now you mentioned using 2 002's to get 36 channels...
is this possible??? and how many more can you use???

cheers

[Chris Cavell]

As many as you want, you just need a computer for each of them. Setup is the same as syncing ADATs to PT, or in recent cases around the DUC roland VS' machines. (Read the sections on MMC and MTC)

[Stiff]

Great post Chris!

[Rock_Artist]

OK at this time it is really a hard decision:
1. TDM|Mix24 value is higher than 002R so upgrading to HD in the future would be cheaper.

2. Pro Tools Mix24 gives you 64 true voices while LE is 32 "Voices" MonoTracks no matter what. I do many premixes that on TDM I wouldn't do.

3. At this time I'm afraid the next PT release would be that last for the Mix series and 001. Digi will drop support for those products soon something that you should take in mind.
Also with the CPUs of today sometimes a Host based system is better than Mix24 power.