Internal Bouncing and Dither Plugin Placement

[Torchlight]

I just want to make sure that i am looking at this correctly. When I am doing and internal bounce (within the PT session), with the intention of exporting the stereo audio track as a 16 bit/44.1 stereo-interleaved file for burning to CD, I place the Dither plugin on the last insert of an Aux track that gets bussed to a new stereo audio track where the mix will be located. That way dithering effects the internally bounced stereo audio track. Right? I know that when doing a Bounce to Disk the dithering plugin gets placed on the last insert of the Master fader because inserts on the master fader are "post" fader. However, placing a dithering plugin on the master fader for an internal bounce doesn't achieve the same result. Right? Does anyone have a good explaination for this? Also please tell me if my thinking is incorrect.

Thanks,

Torchlight

[barismanco123]

If your mixing at 24 bit then bouncing into your session at 24 bit and the same sample rate then dither will be added but for no reason - you need dither when your changing bit depth and sample rate for re-quantization reasons.

Try just straight up internal bounce into PT, same session then export the file with control shift and k.

open a new session then treat the audio if you wish then bounce to disk with dither etc and at the lower bit depth.

Maybe I'm wrong though?

[elicious]

'k, so it sounds like you're recording to disk
i.e. within pro tools, therefore no need to dither at this stage.
if you then plan to simply export that region as a file
then dither is added automatically by pt.
meaning, you're good to go.
b.o.l.
e

[Torchlight]

What I am trying to do is take care of the dithering on the internal bounce in the 24 bit session knowing all the while that the next step is to export/convert to 16 bit for CD burning. It's true that I'm dithering to 16 bit while still in a 24 bit session, but.....I figured that the very next step was to export and convert to 16 bit so I already took care of the dithering. But you say that anytime you do a Shift-Command-K (export) to 16 bit that dithering is automatic? Are you sure? What is the quality of that dithering? I thought that export command did not perform any dithering.

[barismanco123]

In prefs you have a choice of what default dither option you want for things like fades etc - i'm assuming that this setting also works for file exports aswell, seems logical.

I'd be interested to know for sure myself.

[mindnoise]

ProTools does not dither by itself if you stay at the same bit depth and sample rate.
So Bounce to Disk will not use Dither by itself. The Audio Engineers would run haywire.

There is an extra RTAS and AudioSuite Dither plug-in you have to insert or use on the Master Track to apply dither.

Dither should ALWAYS only be applied ONCE.
And this is the LAST step before the FINAL product tracks are going
to be burnt to CD.

Using subsequent Dither will quickly deteriorate you audio quality.

best :)

[Torchlight]

But I am not using Bounce to Disk (BTD). I am doing an internal bounce at 24 bit and then exporting to 16 bit. Where and when should I be using the dither plugin? Last insert on the Master Fader when using BTD but what about for an internal bounce in a 24 bit session that then gets exported to 16 bit stereo-interleaved for CD burning? This is getting confusing and I don't want to degrade the work I am doing over something ridiculous like not using the dither correctly.

[DrFord]

I think I understand what you are doing... let me see if I'm right.

you are busing all of your tracks to an audio track, for the purpose of recording your mix directly into the session. This way you can make adjustments and punches and can then put plug ins on your mix before it hits the master fader - where plug ins are POST fader. I often do this with an Aux fader even when I am using Bounce to Disk. Pretty much the only reason to do this is if you plan on having a fade out on the mix. As you can then automate your master fader (dither still on master fader) and the master fader controls the volume of the whole mix instead of the input to the 1st master fader plug in.

(I always wished Pro Tools had an option for before AND after fade master plug ins.)

You want to apply dither or are wondering when you SHOULD apply dither. As Barismanco said, dither is applied ONLY when changing bit depth.

You do NOT need dither when going between sample rates, however you do need dither when changing bit depth. If you are going to bounce to tape and are working on a 96k session at 24 bits, you can export the file at 44.1k 24 bits without applying dither. Dither covers up (essentially) errors caused when "rounding" math is applied during a change in bit depth = going from 24 character math to 16 character math in binary.

All that said, when do you apply the dither during a bounce to tape? well Dither should ALWAYS be applied at the last possible second. If you plan on using "Export region as file" you need to print any plug ins including dither you have on your original bounce to tape file/region. The easiest way will be to bus the track out to another audio track, mute track, and hit record. This new track should have all your mastering and dither printed. You can then Export this file. If you just click on the file and hit "Export region as file" you will not get any of the plug ins you may have active as the export happens BEFORE the input to the plug in section. This would include your dither plug in. Always remember, Dither once and at the last possible second. Only Print Dither in this case.


HTH

[mindnoise]

don´t be so complicated!

dithering is the very last processing step when you finish your 24bit audio file for the 16bit Master CD.

Within a 24bit Session there is NO reason whatsoever to convert files down to 16bit files before the final Mixdown, Bounce etc., whatever you call it, however you do it.

that´s it.

[Torchlight]

I'm starting to think that just doing a Bounce To Disk (BTD) is easier to do what I need to do; putting the dither plugin on the last insert of the master fader. It seems like it's too much trouble to use the internal bounce process when I know the next step I am making is to convert/export down to 16 bit.

Thanks for the replies and the insight everyone but it seems to me that BTD is the best and easiest process when it's time to convert to 16 bit.

Torchlight