64 Bit Pro Tools? RTAS Working on ALL Cores?

[Lee Blaske]

Originally Posted by peppertree

Digi is avoiding using any system-provided services mostly because TDM is effectively a whole separate computer inside your computer. And that architectural legacy worked its way into RTAS/LE too. But beyond that this is a control-of-destiny thing: Digi feels big enough to go it on its own, and therefore can't have a product held up or destroyed by Apple or Microsoft as easily. They don't have to wait for CoreAudio to be updated to offer sidechains on plugins etc.

But the problem, though, is that the current TDM implementation is a dead-end, with no further Motorola development. Plus, we're totally saddled with all the antique aspects of TDM (e.g. no track freeze, no off line bouncing, no interleaved tracks, no mixed bit-depth track sessions, etc.). (The no off-line bounce limitation wastes a huge amount of my time these days.)

From what I've seen, CoreAudio is always ready to go. When a new Mac computer or OS is released, AU applications like Logic are ready to go from day one. There's no tedious, enormously long waiting period to use new hardware. I'm sorry, but in my perfect world, I'd rather have the company writing my application to have a product that conforms to the OS and hardware. Otherwise, we're always waiting, and by the time everything is compatible, the computer is already on the way to being obsolete. That's really a deplorable situation, and one we shouldn't have to suffer.

You are leaping from one proprietary straitjacket into another. Symphony uses proprietary digital interconnects that lock you into Apogee crap, just as Digi does with ambus and its 192i/o. Of course digi is big enough people reverse engineered it.

RME and I think SSL and some others make MADI interface cards. MADI is a high-channel-count digital open standard, like a much bigger and improved ADAT lightpipe. People have reported success getting 192 simultaneous channels of i/o into a single Mac Pro via MADI. By going standards-based you will always be able to choose your conversion provider freely and you will not suffer designed-in obsolesence from a vendor intent on forcibly fleecing you every five years.

I'll have to check into that. Currently, I'm using 64 channels of interface using 4 Digi 192's to manage all my external computers. If I went to doing everything virtually with just two of the new i7 Macs, there's no way I'd need 192 simultaneous channels. 32 machine to machine channels, plus 16 channels of AD conversion would completely satisfy me. Actually, if VSL ever makes their host capable of running third party VI's and samplers, I might be able to go with just a Gigabit connect for machine to machine routing.

At any rate, there's a lot changing right now, and a lot of new options popping up. It's both exciting and agonizing.

It would be nice to know if Digidesign has anything groundbreaking on the way, but that's not possible. My fear, too, is that if they have a new, high-end system in the works that replaces HD Accel and changes a lot of the rules, they're probably not going to want to release it in a down economy. The initial market reaction to a significant new product is extremely crucial. If people held off buying (because of the economy, or for whatever other reason), it could be a major setback. Perception on how something is being adopted is extremely important.

[Bentley Ferrari]

Originally Posted by peppertree

There's a native interface that offers 26 channels of throughput with cue mixes at the exact same latency as PTHD. It offers 8 ADCs and 8 DACs, both very good quality, and ADAT SMUX.

It's called the M-Audio Profire 2626 and sells for the princely sum of $699.

peppertree--

I was wondering when you'd be getting around to that...

[Bentley Ferrari]

Originally Posted by Lee Blaske

At any rate, there's a lot changing right now, and a lot of new options popping up. It's both exciting and agonizing.

It would be nice to know if Digidesign has anything groundbreaking on the way, but that's not possible. My fear, too, is that if they have a new, high-end system in the works that replaces HD Accel and changes a lot of the rules, they're probably not going to want to release it in a down economy.

I've thought about this too. But why should getting a "heads up" be impossible?

At some point, isn't it just good marketing sense? I mean, when it comes to their broader vision for the future?

I really don't understand the deafening silence about this stuff from Daly City. Nearly every other major company will give you at least a broad-brush picture of their plans for the future.

Car companies do it, electronics manufacturers of all kinds do it, Apple does it, Microsoft and Intel do it, NASA does it.... This is the kind of thing that helps to excite the base, inspire, and foster brand commitment.

Wouldn't you agree?

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by peppertree

There's a native interface that offers 26 channels of throughput with cue mixes at the exact same latency as PTHD. It offers 8 ADCs and 8 DACs, both very good quality, and ADAT SMUX.

It's called the M-Audio Profire 2626 and sells for the princely sum of $699.

I'm sorry, pardon my ignorance here... but how can a Firewire400 interface have the same latency as a PCI/PCIe card in your computer?

The answer from M-Audio is IT CAN'T (I just talked to someone in support). The latency of the 2626 is based on the buffer settings of the software you are using it with and therefore it CAN NEVER achieve the same low latency inherent in a TDM system. It might be able to do a "low latency mode" similar to the 002/003 but even then the latency isn't as low as a TDM system.

and while you are probably just reading the specs off the website... you cannot actual do 26 channels of In and out simultaneously with the 2626. If you keep reading the spec... "select from any of the 26 hardware inputs and 26 software returns as sources for its 18 input channels" You can only do 18 in and out simultaneously. It's selectable in banks of 8. You CANNOT have ALL 8 mic preamps PLUS all 16 ADAT PLUS SPDIF. It absolutely will not let you do that.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Lee Blaske

It would be nice to know if Digidesign has anything groundbreaking on the way, but that's not possible. My fear, too, is that if they have a new, high-end system in the works that replaces HD Accel and changes a lot of the rules, they're probably not going to want to release it in a down economy. The initial market reaction to a significant new product is extremely crucial. If people held off buying (because of the economy, or for whatever other reason), it could be a major setback. Perception on how something is being adopted is extremely important.

They do from what people have alluded in the past at tradeshows and from friends inside digi. It isn't anywhere near completion yet. But when it comes out, it will definitely last for as long as HD has. If you have an HD system and you get rid of it to switch over to native, you are throwing your money away. As always Digi will probably have an upgrade path to the "NEW" successor to HD and if you sell your HD system and replace it with logic... you'll have to buy the new system at full price. And then we'll start to see all these people complaining on the duc about how they sold their HD system and now have to buy the new system at full value and how they want a "crossgrade" price from Logic or Nuendo... hahaha.

I find, the people that do the most bitching about software and are always jumping ship to the next "latest and greatest" DAW spend more time trying to learn the new software and hardware than they do creating music. And once they have the new software down and can finally start producing music in a reasonable amount of time, then someone else comes out with something better and so they abandon their new program for the next new program and the cycle continues.

[Bentley Ferrari]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

They do from what people have alluded in the past at tradeshows and from friends inside digi. It isn't anywhere near completion yet. But when it comes out, it will definitely last for as long as HD has.

Well...yeah, we all have heard bits and pieces of this and that from whomever, or whomever's friend. And it stands to reason that Digidesign must be working on something, whatever it may be, and that it will replace HD. And the sun will come up tomorrow morning.

If you have an HD system and you get rid of it to switch over to native, you are throwing your money away. As always Digi will probably have an upgrade path to the "NEW" successor to HD and if you sell your HD system and replace it with logic... you'll have to buy the new system at full price. And then we'll start to see all these people complaining on the duc about how they sold their HD system and now have to buy the new system at full value and how they want a "crossgrade" price from Logic or Nuendo... hahaha.

And you have a good point about sticking with HD rather than jumping around. The odds say that's the smart thing to do, IMO, all other things being equal. But shouldn't Digidesign be the one telling customers this, and giving them some basic ideas of what they have to look forward to?

I find, the people that do the most bitching about software and are always jumping ship to the next "latest and greatest" DAW spend more time trying to learn the new software and hardware than they do creating music. And once they have the new software down and can finally start producing music in a reasonable amount of time, then someone else comes out with something better and so they abandon their new program for the next new program and the cycle continues.

That may be true, but I don't think that's happening here. I sure didn't get that from Lee's post.

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

I'm sorry, pardon my ignorance here... but how can a Firewire400 interface have the same latency as a PCI/PCIe card in your computer?

The answer from M-Audio is IT CAN'T (I just talked to someone in support). The latency of the 2626 is based on the buffer settings of the software you are using it with and therefore it CAN NEVER achieve the same low latency inherent in a TDM system. It might be able to do a "low latency mode" similar to the 002/003 but even then the latency isn't as low as a TDM system.

and while you are probably just reading the specs off the website... you cannot actual do 26 channels of In and out simultaneously with the 2626. If you keep reading the spec... "select from any of the 26 hardware inputs and 26 software returns as sources for its 18 input channels" You can only do 18 in and out simultaneously. It's selectable in banks of 8. You CANNOT have ALL 8 mic preamps PLUS all 16 ADAT PLUS SPDIF. It absolutely will not let you do that.

And you are completely wrong...sorry. I do pardon your ignorance of course.

The 2626 has a DSP mixer on board that is separate from Pro Tools, and allows you to make cue mixes at HD latencies including 8 different aux sends. Yes, HD latencies: <2ms @44.1, <1ms @ 96KHz. This works completely perfectly for all your tracking needs which is when latency matters. Unless you are trying to track through plugins which I personally never do...I use real guitar amps and outboard. If you need that facility I would look at the Metric Halo line for a modern implementation.

The 2626 also will allow all 26 channels to be recorded simultaneously. Yessindeedee.

The only catch is that digidesign finds it an absolutely terrifying development and has decided to cripple Pro Tools (dis)M-powered to only support 18i/o. Digidesign also crippled it to have a minimum latency for RTAS plugins of 128 samples (but you can still use the DSP mixer to have HD latencies on foldback). Digidesign can remove the cripple code in a simple toggle...they might sell an upgrade toolkit or something that unlocks the full i/o capability, or it's possible we could get enough customers furious enough that digi just decripples it for free.

It's natural that digidesign would find it so terrifying, as there is no computational challenge left in digital audio. A system with more power than an HD6 can be made today for a few hundred dollars. So to maintain their gouging gross margins they are trying to convince people like you that HD systems are still necessary for professional work, via crippleware policies on the native stuff.

The only way they can get away with that is on the strength of their software which people have mentioned in this thread. But things like Reaper and Metric Halo and the like are being made by very, very smart people and digidesign will have to take a different tack to defend the franchise shortly.

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by Bentley Ferrari

I've thought about this too. But why should getting a "heads up" be impossible?

At some point, isn't it just good marketing sense? I mean, when it comes to their broader vision for the future?

I really don't understand the deafening silence about this stuff from Daly City. Nearly every other major company will give you at least a broad-brush picture of their plans for the future.

Car companies do it, electronics manufacturers of all kinds do it, Apple does it, Microsoft and Intel do it, NASA does it.... This is the kind of thing that helps to excite the base, inspire, and foster brand commitment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah but the news is all bad to the customer. The only part of peoples' existing investments that will continue to work is probably the moving-fader controller. TDM plugins won't work anymore, and possibly ambus interfaces won't either. And digi looks at least a couple years out from getting an HD replacement out the door, if they are even able to. In the meantime no one would buy HD systems and the pressure for digi to just fully embrace native would become unignorable.

It's not a down economy that they would be worried about. It is introducing the product without a must-have value proposition. The crippleware policy creates an artificial must-have for the HD line. By the time their new system appears, the OpenCL and other technologies you guys are talking about will be here, and competitors will be demonstrating 192 simultaneous i/o with <1ms latency DSP into a native system like Logic for a couple thousand dollars or so total cost of ownership.

So how does digidesign put out a profitable line when all their real competitive advantages are already sold today for $250 in the MBox micro? Will enough people continue to tolerate the crippleware approach...to the tune of $10,000 and up?

[danms66]

Originally Posted by peppertree

The only catch is that digidesign finds it an absolutely terrifying development and ...(snip)

.

Doesn't Avid own M-Audio? Why would they be terrified about what they're doing themselves?

http://icrontic.com/news/2004-avid_tech_to_buy_m-audio

[peppertree]

Originally Posted by danms66

Doesn't Avid own M-Audio? Why would they be terrified about what they're doing themselves?

http://icrontic.com/news/2004-avid_tech_to_buy_m-audio

I know. It's hilarious.

But as part of the deal Avid let M-Audio retain its own management, R&D and sales staff down in San Diego. Avid got digidesign to make Pro Tools (dis)M-powered but digidesign views their step-sister as a competitor. The sales staffs say vicious things about the other company to the dealerships (very amusing to the dealers).

The 2626 completely blows the 003 out of the water on every level conceivable. Basically M-Audio read everything people complained about the 003 and fixed it. The converters are way better, there is SMUX for all 18i/o at 96KHz into Pro Tools, there is HD-latency monitoring, including on external converters (low-latency monitoring does NOT work with external converters in PTLE), the preamp gain stages are completely bypassable, there are 8 preamps, it's a single rack space, it operates standalone as an ADAT AD/DA converter, and I'm probably forgetting half of the advantages. Oh yeah, it's about half the price.

Make no mistake this was a direct assault on digidesign's hardware pre-eminence and digidesign responded. No Complete Extortion Toolkit for you!