Thoughts on configuring Venue for monitors

[Scott Fahy]

Wanted to put this out there and get other people's thoughts on how to configure a Venue to handle this monitor requirement. I need to think outside the box when the finances become available for us to purchase a Venue for monitor world. This is what I need to end up with for mixes

Stereo IEM/Headphone mixes:
Piano
Keys
Drums
Bass
Organ
Acoustic
Sax
Band mix to singers Aviom
Singers blend to Aviom (I control the blend to the 8 singers)

Wedge Mixes
Guitar
Choir
Stage
Key spare
Piano spare (2)
Auxilliary
Butt Kicker

Currently doing this on a Soundcraft Five 56 X 32 with 8 Aviom's for the singers.


Any ideas or comments greatly appreciated.

Scott

[JW3]

Hey Scott...

I haven't tried this, but you might be able to use the Groups to control your wedge mixes freeing up all the auxes for stereo IEMs. Bus Assignments might get a little confusing, & you can't Delay the groups like you can on the Auxes, but it might be worth trying. Then use the Matrixes/PQs for any blends to Aviom.

My setup is a little different at Saddleback but I also run wedge mixes, IEMs, & Aviom mixes & I had to get a little creative myself cuz I have to be ready for anything at anytime here. Having a Profile for monitors has been a life-saver, & job-saver :)...

I'd be interested to see what you end up doing.

John

[Scott Fahy]

John,
I've played around on the Standalone and the FOH console just to get a feel for how I would handle what I know most of the band and singers want. The 16 auxes with 8 variable groups routing some mixes through PQ's and the wedge mixes through Matrix seems workable enough but still not what I'm looking for. I just flat run out of ways to have enough discrete details on the desk. Ah well plenty of time to play as it will be while before we make the purchase.

Again, all thoughts and suggestions no matter how weird they may seem are welcome.

[Roland Clarke]

Seriously speaking, if you haven't the budget for a monitor mixer I would look at simplifying the monitoring requirements. What you have at the moment would suffice a major touring act with full time pro musicians. To handle that amount would (IMHO) be enough of a workload for one engineer, let alone dealing with FOH as well. I see more problems with monitoring through trying to do too much than not having enough. Obviously only you can answer this question as none of us are present to see the situation. Even with the power of Venue, there is still good reason for remembering "Keep It Simple Stupid".

What you are doing is of course possible, but I would think that the workload would mean that several mixes are suffering.

Roland

[Scott Fahy]

Roland we do have seperate consoles at FOH and monitors now. Our services are pretty varied and with a lot of different musicians (some of whom are touring professionals themselves) that having the recall ability of the D Show would be a huge benefit. Oh and I do keep things simple as much as possible.

Scott

[Jason Stygar]

Scott,

This does seem to be the big limitation of a VENUE at monitors. We have a Profile system at monitors and we've run it with a few different setups...

First, we had some wedges and sky monitors along with a 32-input matrix mixing system for our band. So we were able to direct-out to the matrix system for our band and not have to work in any crazy routing and sub mixing...

Then we integrated some Aviom stuff instead of the matrix system... This got a little crazy because we had to create a lot of sub-mixes to fit within the 16-channel limit of Aviom... We had that alongside our wedges mixes... This worked fine but it was incredibly un-intuitive. We had a couple volunteers opt-out because it just wasn't friendly. Even some of our more advanced techs couldn't just walk up and understand the layout. It wasn't fast either, in the sense of getting around the board. All these things factored to make it a less than desirable monitor setup.

Currently we run our band on stereo in-ears and 4-5 wedges for vocals out front... We also create our stereo two-mix for recording from monitors, as we feel it gives a more 'cd quality' sound as compared to a FOH board mix. While this works, and allow the most flexibility, in my opinion there's too much paging around and keystrokes to get places... But that's probably a different topic for a different day (monitor-specific control surface?)...

At any rate, this last setup appears to be what you are trying to accomplish, you just have a lot more than we do...

We've looked at moving some vocals to in-ear mixes, but this consumes another pair of auxes for each vocal and we just can't afford it... We're stunted by the limited architecture of the console... (Not to say the console is wonderful for all the other blessings it bestows upon us...)

Essentially you have a similar problem with running out of mixes... We haven't found a good way around it without making it incredibly user-unfriendly... For monitors, being able to work fast and having an intuitive setup that allows this are key, in my opinion.

As you said, you just run out of ways to have discrete details on the desk, and that's just it. You could make it work, maybe, but it won't be straightforward.

We have a VENUE at FOH and at Monitors... And as much as I love it, I couldn't recommend it for a large-scale monitor setup. Not until something changes...

I think this is a great topic though, because it's the biggest drawback to a VENUE at monitors... I know some places that just absolutely can't operate with this small of a buss architecture...

Hope my thoughts helped some...

Jason

[JW3]

Originally Posted by Scott Fahy

John,
I've played around on the Standalone and the FOH console just to get a feel for how I would handle what I know most of the band and singers want. The 16 auxes with 8 variable groups routing some mixes through PQ's and the wedge mixes through Matrix seems workable enough but still not what I'm looking for. I just flat run out of ways to have enough discrete details on the desk. Ah well plenty of time to play as it will be while before we make the purchase.

Again, all thoughts and suggestions no matter how weird they may seem are welcome.

Scott, I totally see where you're coming from. & Jason is right. My monitor setup is pretty complex also, mostly to accommodate Aviom (I'll bite my tongue here, not my choice) & there's only a few guys here who can grasp the layout of the console.

Have you had an opportunity to demo the actual PQ system yet? I demoed it for a month & hands down across the board every musician here who used it whether on IEM or wedge mix loved the system. Some of them liked having control, & other liked that I could lock them out & just mix their ears myself. The 12 channel limit wasn't an issue since the patching is snapshot recallable. I know price point is an issue here but if you had 8 stereo IEMs controlled by PQ that would free up the 16 Auxes & 8 Variable Groups, AND you can still run the Aviom system along with it. Sorry for the sales pitch. Just throwin' ideas out...
:)

John

[Roland Clarke]

How many mixes you do you want to run?

At the risk of looking like a flame post, I think you guy's have to get realistic. For starters, multiple IEM and wedge mixes are not for "volunteers", unless their day job is pro audio guy. This stuff isn't simple for the pro's, a lot of things to keep in mind at any one time, and unless you can do the mixing in your sleep you are going to make a mess.

Go back 15 years ago there was little of no IEM. Ears are great and make a lot of problems like feedback things of the past, but they don't suit all and require a lot more accuracy from a mix perspective as you well know.

8 Ears and 7 Wedge mixes are a fair amount, even by todays standards. That is going to be complicated by any means of doing it. Venue allows with the PQ's and Matrixes the ability to build relatively simple mixes with "more me". perfect for ears. With aviom there are still further options for giving the talent their own options. If you still feel that you you really need more, I believe that you can technically run more on some other digital consoles brands, but they have other drawbacks. With this level of flexibility you are going to have to page around the desk, or have a much bigger surface as with an analogue desk.

Roland

[JW3]

Hey Roland,

I (I think Scott also) am mixing in a (I hesitate to use this term) "mega-church" environment where everyone on stage is a mix of professional musicians & volunteers & having to be ready for any type of mix at all times has always been the status quo. I am always allowed to voice my opinion but what the leader on stage wants is what happens. We are being realistic, & honestly I have a job here specifically because I can make all of this happen. I know exactly what you're saying & in most cases your opinion would be agreed with. But what we do here is not the norm.

John

[Scott Fahy]

Originally Posted by JW3

Hey Roland,

I (I think Scott also) am mixing in a (I hesitate to use this term) "mega-church" environment where everyone on stage is a mix of professional musicians & volunteers & having to be ready for any type of mix at all times has always been the status quo. I am always allowed to voice my opinion but what the leader on stage wants is what happens. We are being realistic, & honestly I have a job here specifically because I can make all of this happen. I know exactly what you're saying & in most cases your opinion would be agreed with. But what we do here is not the norm.

John

Originally Posted by Roland Clarke

How many mixes you do you want to run?

At the risk of looking like a flame post, I think you guy's have to get realistic. For starters, multiple IEM and wedge mixes are not for "volunteers", unless their day job is pro audio guy. This stuff isn't simple for the pro's, a lot of things to keep in mind at any one time, and unless you can do the mixing in your sleep you are going to make a mess.

Go back 15 years ago there was little of no IEM. Ears are great and make a lot of problems like feedback things of the past, but they don't suit all and require a lot more accuracy from a mix perspective as you well know.

8 Ears and 7 Wedge mixes are a fair amount, even by todays standards. That is going to be complicated by any means of doing it. Venue allows with the PQ's and Matrixes the ability to build relatively simple mixes with "more me". perfect for ears. With aviom there are still further options for giving the talent their own options. If you still feel that you you really need more, I believe that you can technically run more on some other digital consoles brands, but they have other drawbacks. With this level of flexibility you are going to have to page around the desk, or have a much bigger surface as with an analogue desk.

Roland

Roland no offense taken, also John is pretty spot on with comments about our environment. I'm not worried about making things too complicated for volunteers, we understand the demands placed on the monitor guy. Hence no volunteers.

Time for more INFO: On a normal weekend I'm running 6 to 7 IEM band mixes (singers are on AVIOMS) with 1 sometimes 2 wedges, every other week I lose the singers IEM and go to a choir overhead monitor but there are occasions when I need to have the capability of dialing things into other places depending on what's going on. I have some ideas after doing some more playing with routing that might work but still am looking for those"outside the box" ideas.


Now if Sheldon would get on the ball and have that USER button make AUX's 1-16 jump to 17-32 my life would be much simpler. (hint hint)