Hey DIGI! (You're not out of the woods yet)....

[nonsqtr]

Hey Digi, I've been bugging you guys for weeks now about your tech support in relation to helping people get by the ProTools learning curve (or, just letting them know there "is" a learning curve) -

'Cause look, I've been following these threads for a while now, and it's like every other one is "my system ran out of resource" or something like that, and I can tell that you're getting some pretty irate customers (I mean, to put it another way - the result of that relates to your reputation in the industry, right? if your systems are deemed to be "flaky", then, well, word gets around, right? that's a harsh way of saying it, but it's true, and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know) ---

SO - what you need - and I can even write this for you, in fact I'll even do it for free if you want, or I'll collaborate with one of your tech writers if you wish, 'cause I'm in the Bay area every weekend and at least two weeks a month, so I can easily show up at your front door and help guide you through this process, if that's what it takes -

Look - start here: let's do some simple math. At 10 Mb a stereo minute, your computer will have to support a 320 Mb/min throughput in order to play 32 stereo tracks. Throughput means "all the way" through, so each component in your machine must be able to support the full speed - if any component supports less than that, then your system performance will only be as good as the weakest component." Then you talk about the pathway between the disk drive and the CPU, the front side bus and so on, the issues in relation to USB and firewire.....

See what I mean? You gotta use simple logic like that, and lay it out in black and white for the customer. If you want the customer to be a rocket scientist (which apparently is the case), then you've got to ante up by providing enough informational "stakes in the ground" to allow the terrain map to be built - and right now, lots and lots of people are obviously having great difficulty and confusion in those first few steps of the learning curve.

But what's even MORE important, and this is the part you should communicate back to your marketing people - you HAVE to pay attention to the concept of deliberately and pointedly advertising the system limits. 'Cause otherwise, you're right on the hairy edge of "false advertising" with what you're doing now.

And, I've noted how DigiTechSupt studiously avoids any discussion that relates to "why am I running out of resources after 5 tracks".... it's like, they don't want to touch this space, 'cause they figure it's just noobs learning their app, but that's not at all the way it is - in fact, that would be an incredibly naive and couterproductive viewpoint.

The truth of the matter is, that the information in this space needs to be COLLECTED, ORGANIZED, and ADVERTISED.

Simple stuff - a chart of "incompatible applications". Earthlink and GoBack: requires de-install. Zone Alarm: lock (shut off) all internet traffic at the IP level.... that kind of thing.

How about this RIDICULOUS qualification stuff - speaking of which, that's ANOTHER question that DigiTechSupt hasn't answered - what does "qualification" mean exactly? My take is, it means exactly NOTHING. It means some QA guy exercised the app for a few hours and it didn't crash, am I right?

But it tells you NOTHING about the resources that are required to achieve the full advertised capability of these systems.

See, "system qualification" is exactly the WRONG approach to explaining to people what kind of systems they need for ProTools (M-Powered or LE or whatever), unless you're going to use a repetable benchmark that can be applied to ANY system, to test it to find out whether it'll run ProTools, and if so how WELL it'll run ProTools See? Too complicated, and too expensive. What you need to do instead, is EXPLAIN to people what the issues are, so that way they can make their own decisions being fully aware of what the risks are - but you can't hold your customers responsible if you aren't giving the information in the first place, and that's what happens today - you AREN"T giving us the information we need to get over these installation-and-configuration humps.

And let's say I've just discovered that Earthlink clobbers my ProTools (which it does - if you have the Earthlink software installed, even if your browser isn't running and even if you're PHYSICALLY DISCONNECTED from the internet, Earthlink will still wake up and cause your ProTools timing to stutter and the worst part of it is, that ProTools doesn't NOTICE it, and doesn't TELL you about it, doesn't even STOP and say "lost sync" - it just merrily goes on playing GARBAGE as if nothing were wrong. Anyway, so that sounds like a pretty serious conflict, right? So, you want to have a mechanism whereby a customer like me can REPORT such a discovery, and then maybe someone at your lab can REPLICATE IT (or not, as the case may be, you can just keep a flag somewhere that says "not yet replicated by Digi"), and then that information needs to be SHARED with other customers via a website or tech support databse - I mean, why should all the other poor slobs have to re-discover the same solutiosn I did? I'll just give 'em mine - that'll save 'em time and grief and it'll probably save Digi a few unhappy customers, dig? You NEED to put this stuff in place, it's not hard.....

Darn. Look, I have forty years in the software business. I can help you. I'm a pretty good tech writer too, I actually speak English as well as computer, and I can translate between the two. I can show you EXACTLY how to lay out this information so that it makes the best sense to the end user (ALL end users - of all levels) - and then secondarily, I can show you how to turn this "tech support space" into a LIVING ENTITY that runs ALL BY ITSELF (ie using mostly an automated web site, with minimal time and effort by Digi personnel). Does that sound good? Really guys, this stuff wouldn't cost you all that much, and I could make a VERY strong business case that you could recoup your expenses in just a very short time via increased sales and happier customers.

Digi, please tell us what's going on. I see "some" evidence that you guys are making some effort in the tech support space, but it's like, I'm seeing movement in inches when I'm needing to see movement in miles. You guys really need to pay attention to this stuff. This space needs a "total revamp". You could start by organizing your new tech support page on the web-site "like I told you in the last thread", but that's a ONE-DAY EXERCISE - in other words, unless your web programmers are completely incompetent, it should have been done by now.

So, I'm left with the impression that this still isn't "all that high of a priority" within the company.

So, what's going on? Give us some sense, a flavor, please.... we're entitled to that much, right?

Thanks!

[dillon99999]

i doubt that digi makes any serious money from M-Powered audience when in comparison to the market for HD systems and ICON.

people who buy those systems, usually get them from a vendor that is licensed to sell them.

along with that, comes tech support help (and hand holding) that M-Powered users struggle with.

so economics play a part in this particular game, and digi is going to strategize accordingly.

people who buy a Bentley get much better "customer support" than those that buy a YUGO.

i think you understand economics enough to realize that a person that buys a $100,000+ system will get top notch support, and someone that buys a $250 product will get much less.

HD systems are much more "controlled" in the marketplace, because they require specific hardware that is approved by digi.

most vendors will actually PICK the computer for an HD system, and in some cases INSTALL it at the site.

at a minimum, the vendor will RECOMMEND a system for the HD buyer - which will usually be a detailed specification of what to buy.

also, most users in the real world that run Pro Tools are on a MAC - which tends to be more stable and tailored to Pro Tools requirements.

just my 2 cents on this topic.

good luck with that technical writing.

[brandymania1]

Hi boss
I must say your a god damn tryer but do you not think your talking a lot of sh**.
We dont need digi support ,9 times out of 10 it doesnt work anyway. You have all the tech support you want here on this forum. Post a problem or question here and your guaranteed it will be answered, sometimes in minutes, but deffinitly the same day, even by people that dont like you.I always noticed that nobody holds a grudge here.You cant get better than that.

brandy

[nonsqtr]

Interesting. Great replies, thanks. Two different perspectives perhaps. Good stuff.

Well, sorry about the delay in circling back here to this thread, but I've been busy trying to get my ProTools systems working.

Let's see - yeah, I hear the part about the economics. I'm learning that Digi actually runs a pretty tight (lean?) ship. They have five tech writers in total, I'm told, and that would include the entire product space including not only ProTools but all the hardware and plug-ins and etc - plus I'm told the tech support department is running pretty lean too.

Well, I'm kinda interested in the Digi "business model". You know, like the whole deal about "closely holding" the proprietary information and so on - that model, I think, comes out of the hardware world, and it's a strange model when it's applied to the world of shrink-wrapped software (which is what M-Powered is, mostly).

I think, that when Digi looks at the world, they look at it with these "hardware-colored glasses", and I suppose that works for them, business-wise, but it also.. mmm.... how shall I say.... let me say it this way - whoever's up there making decisions about these kinds of things, and whatever "priorities" they perceive as being important (in terms of how they allocate their scarce resources) - is kinda missing a HUGE business opportunity by thinking "narrowly" about the software business model.

So yeah, i UNDERSTAND the economics, and that's precisely WHY I'm suggesting that Digi could be making a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY out of this - in other words, there's MONEY to be made in this space. Digi could actually save quite a buck, relative to the way they're doing things today, if they just approached the issue from a slightly different angle.

And it's my "perception", that the prevailing "business model" prevents them from doing that.

The argument I'm trying to make, is that it might be time, for Digi to reconsider how it wants to allocate its priorities, relative to the software markets ('cause really, ProTools is so vastly superior to any other audio application, feature-wise, that it should have driven all the competitors out of business long ago, and my take is, that the reason the "other guys" are still around, is 'cause they address the "cheap and efficient" market niche that ProTools can't touch - and the only reason they can't touch it, is 'cause they don't know how to LOOK at it, from a business point of view).... I mean, this whole thing about tech support is a PERFECT example - I mean, this is a no-brainer, right? You AUTOMATE your tech support, and you save money doing it. Simple. Bing bang boom. Done. I could do it in THIRTY DAYS, all by myself, with no help from anyone at Digi (in other words I wouldn't have to pull any resources from ongoing projects). Digi should hire me as a consultant or something. (Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now, but if I did, I'd do it - cheap - 'cause I want ProTools to be ROBUST - that's what I care about most in life. I care about that WAY more than I care about some "nice" application feature - all that "wow" stuff means exactly NOTHING if my system can't keep time. And if I find out at the end of the day that it isn't keeping time because it has a CONFLICT with another piece of software, and that conflict is so obvious and so blatant that there's no possible way Digi couldn't have known about it (I mean, what are the chances? how many Digi customers are there and how many Earthlink customers are there? what are the chances that AT LEAST ONE ProTools user is also an Earthlink customer?) - I mean, I gonna be MAD AS HELL if I find out I've just spent three days tracking down this issue that should have taken me exactly ONE MINUTE to find using a keyword search on a Digi tech support site. I should be able to type in "stuttering" and badda-boom, there's a list of all the known incompatible software that causes stuttering - and, oh look, there's Norton and Earthlink right at the top of the list.

See what I mean?

This stuff is really basic, I mean, it's really a no-brainer from where I stand, having had "a bit" of experience in both the computer and audio industries.

And the other bit about spouting nonsense - well, the point is to make DIGI understand. You guys (and me), we all know Digi could do "a little better job" in the tech support space. In terms of "getting all the help I need up here on the forum", I'm sorry but that has not been my experience. No one up here told me about earthlink. In fact, I rather think I told YOU guys about it, didn't I?

But, that's hardly the issue, right? I mean, the list goes on - Earthlink, GoBack, Retrospect, you know, there's like, SO many of them - so once you get that terrain, then you discover that these softwares fall into "major categories" like "stuff that does backups" and "stuff that accesses the internet without telling you" and "stuff that reorganizes your hard disk" which would include index and backups and defrags and yadda yadda - and THAT's how you build knowledge, not by getting a specific question answered.

However, when you're in a mission-critical working environment and you need your system WORKING, and then you have to spend three days tracking down a STUPID STUPID STUPID conflict like this, I mean, it's almost like Digi should be paying ME for the three days I didn't have, coming up with this PROPRIETARY technical information that was gained at GREAT EXPENSE, and yet, here I am sharing it freely with all of y'all, and the only reason I have to do that is 'cause Digi is FAILING MISERABLY in this "software tech support" space.....

They're really actually pretty good with hardware. They just processed an Accel card of mine, and once I jumped through all the required hoops with the documentation the whole think went lightning-fast. So maybe, hopefully, I've finally established my "bona-fides" with Digi (although let's see, it took almost three weeks, which is "more" than a minor annoyance, trust me on that one)....

But for some reason, Digi seems to be actively ignoring this very important part of the software space - and it's hard for me to understand why, 'cause a) they could be making money on it (or at least, saving money relative to how they're doing things today), and b) the market is progressive and LE customers become HD customers, but they don't do that if they have a "bad user experience" with LE, and then c) the industry reputation that ProTools is this big unwieldy monster that requires an expert (and in fact is probably better left "entirely" to the experts, in most cases) - that reputation, is only partially deserved, 'cause really, ProTools isn't ALL that complicated, but Digi tends to make it that way 'cause it brings in a few more bucks through classes and extended support and all that.... See what I mean? There it is again - the BUSINESS MODEL.

I think THAT's really the issue. At least, that's the whiff I get - that's how it smells. Someone at Digi needs to be convinced that their current model needs updating. 'Cause everyone I've spoken to at Digi (and that's both horizontally and vertically up and down and across the corporate ladder), admits and acknowledges the problem (well, "privately" they'll do it, publicly they don't like to dwell on it) - but when pressed, at the end of the day, the ultimate answer always turns out to be the vague and nebulous "political issues".

Believe me, I know how it is. Been there done that.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help me.

I need my ProTools to be ROBUST.

Let me rephrase that:

I NEED my ProTools to be robust.

Otherwise I can't use it.

And really, what I'm discovering is, that there's no reason in the world it can't be robust. All this nonsense about qualifying systems, and firewire glitches, and.... I mean, the real issue is throughput, and that's VERY easily addressed, even on little laptops. One nice little solution I'm looking at, is a Fibre Channel JBOD. It's perfect, you can slide up to 8 drives in there, and you can use pretty much any kind of drive you want (including SATA drives), and it's completely portable, you can toss it into the car along with your laptop and your Ozonic and you're good to go. And you can dedicate an entire drive to those BFD samples and STILL have plenty of room left over for streaming 32 audio tracks at the same time. And Digi doesn't TELL you about this stuff, right? It's like, "oh, well, you should get the HP laptop 'cause that's the only one we've qualified", right? See what I mean?

It's like, they're Digi's biting their own nose to spite their face, or something like that, I don't know... they're definitely NOT incompetent that way, and I DO believe that the question is ultimtately (probably) political in nature, and my take is, that the ONLY way to convince the powers that be, is to show them dollar signs.

That's been my experience, in every company I've ever worked with or for, and I don't see why Digi should be any different - do you?

[nonsqtr]

So, let me amplify what I just said, by giving you a specific example, that pertains directly to the space we're talking about.

Now, in the previous post, regarding the question of "priorities", and "allocation of resources" - let's say you're the CEO of Digi, and you're looking at next year's budget, and you're trying to figure out how to best allocate your dollars strategically for business growth and continuity -

So, now you're looking at this tradeoff, and the word you're getting from the street is that people are suggesting "fixing" these few software tech support issues, and that would cost half a million bucks or so - and it looks like there's kinda two "thresholds" in the investment relative to return, so maybe it would be possible to get some good bang for the buck by just addressing one or two crucial areas (but doing those "well" and "effectively") -

But on the other hand, your "traditional thinking" is still telling you that the PC world is very different from the Mac world, and that PC's are "all over the place", and it wouldn't make good business sense to be in the business of trying to investigate and manage all the issues related to the gazillions of possible PC configurations (and by extension, hardware add-ons and software that may or may not conflict with ProTools - in "various" ways, and sometimes "various" means various "all at once")-

So, where do you put your dollars? If you take the chance and open up "a little" window into that world (in other words, if you give the customer the flavor that you're somehow "supporting" the PC configuration space), then it'll never end - the nightmare is that it'll be a black hole for money and it's not a space where the company can make any profit.

So, the "safe" thing to do, would be to leave the tech support space "as is", and put the dollars towards additional research into new products, which actually DO make money for the company, and yadda yadda....

See? I think, if I'm not mistaken (that is to say, if my nose serves me well), that's kinda what's happening, and where things stand.

But MY argument here, is that the "traditional thinking" is very WRONG - it's absolutely the INCORRECT way to look at the software tech support space. If you're SMART about that space, you'll be making money off it. I could give you dozens of examples in the software world, of companies that are doing exactly that. Some companies even go way over to the other extreme - companies like Symantec for instance - you can't even TALK to those guys without giving them your credit card number. And guess what, their stock is doing okay, even in spite of the recent market "correction".

Digi, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite. You know, it's like, if I bought my HD on eBay or something, they won't fix it at ANY price - they won't even LOOK at it - they'll mark "return to sender" on the unopened box. I can be BEGGING them to take my credit card number, and it won't make any difference - see what I mean?

So, given this - at the end of the day, one has to ask oneself why Digi chooses to position themselves this way, in a market that clearly encompasses "more than one" niche, and in a space within which there are MANY acceptable and viable solutions - WHY is it that Digi doesn't YET have an automated tech support database? I mean, we're already up to release 7.3.what-is-it-now?

That tells me, that for the past 7 major releases, this issue has not been a "high priority" for Digi. And my best guess as to why, is because someone isn't seeing dollar signs attached to it.

And I'm suggesting that there ARE dollar signs attached to it, but my take is, that given the space in which Digi operates, software-wise in relation to PC's, there's really only one or two "right" ways to do this, and doing it the "wrong" way would probably lead to persistent bad memories.... how can I say... would "leave a bad taste in Digi's mouth?" (I don't know, maybe that's what happened, maybe they tried this at one point, but took guidance from the wrong source(s) or maybe didn't have any guidance at all, and if this kind of effort fails then it becomes a huge and visible expense and probably heads roll and so on, so maybe there's some "history" there, or whatever(...

But I'm 100% certain, in fact I'd stake my entire professional career and reputation on it, that Digi can do this "better". They CAN address this software tech support space, and they CAN make it a good experience for the end user, and they CAN do it efficiently and save money doing it (and there's even a very strong possibility that they can even MAKE money doing it) - in other words, they can get all this for FREE......

If they'd only reconsider this little piece of their business model.

Hmm.....

[dillon99999]

if you need a forum to write stories, consider using myspace blogs.

this is the wrong forum to express these types of complaints / issues.

simply put - build a computer from the ground up, with nothing else on it but the operating system, and pro tools.

really, i'm not trying to be an a**, but these long chapters are annoying the h*ll outta me.

we're here to help users, not get on a soapbox.

use this forum for posting PROBLEMS you have with your SYSTEM.

any other use is in violation of DUC terms.

says at the TOP:
Please post your message (once only) to the correct forum from the Main Index.

[pfo]

Have you considered selling your PC and getting an Apple? If you did, you might find you don't have anything to write about. You could quit worrying about teching your system and get back to doing what Pro Tools was designed for.

This may come across as flippant or arrogant, but I'm actually quite serious. I think your PC is the root of your problems. I can't identify with anything you've written here.

But then, maybe I should just butt out and keep my big mouth shut. I don't even know why I ever look at the Windows forum. I only glance through every now and then, but it always makes me cringe to see what you guys are dealing with.

And yes, I know some people are successfully running Pro Tools on Windows systems. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's clearly not working for you.

[nonsqtr]

Have you considered selling your PC and getting an Apple? If you did, you might find you don't have anything to write about. You could quit worrying about teching your system and get back to doing what Pro Tools was designed for.

This may come across as flippant or arrogant, but I'm actually quite serious. I think your PC is the root of your problems. I can't identify with anything you've written here.

But then, maybe I should just butt out and keep my big mouth shut. I don't even know why I ever look at the Windows forum. I only glance through every now and then, but it always makes me cringe to see what you guys are dealing with.

And yes, I know some people are successfully running Pro Tools on Windows systems. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's clearly not working for you.

I hear that. Yes, I do undersatnd that PT works "somewhat more reliably" on the Mac platform.

PT was kinda "built around" the Mac, right?

Well... as a software guy, I can tell you for sure, that's about 99% of the reason why it doesn't work correctly on Windows.

No foolin' - I mean, I used to write device drivers for a living, and I've written plenty of disk drivers and file system drivers, and we were spoofing Avid drives back when that whole concept was still a gleam in Atto's eye, so....

I think you might be talking to the wrong guy. But I hear you though. If I didn't dislike the Mac so much, I'd probably buy one, just to get PT to work reliably. Actually the truth of the matter is, that my HD system works VERY reliably - it's mainly the LE/M-Powered space that deserves most of the complaints. I really think most of the folks who buy HD systems are probably going to buy a computer to along with it, and in that case they'll probably do their research and due diligence up front - whereas most of the people who buy LE in the store are just entry-level folks who already have a full investment into their existing computer systems, and they're not about to go out and buy a new system just to get ProTools to work (I mean, Mac or PC wouldn't matter, the expense would be "too high" in either case)....

(Edit: a quickie aside - see, the "history" of the PT application is kinda interesting, 'cause the way it was written, way back when, they're doing a lot of stuff "up in the application" that really the oprating system should be handling - but back in the day, the Mac-OS couldn't do it - and hardly anyone else could either - so "BACK IN THE DAY" it was actually a pretty miraculous engineering achievement to make PT work "at all" on a small platform like a Mac - but that was BACK IN THE DAY - in today's world, if it were me, I would do a "total rewrite" on the underlying audio engine, and I'd move everything back down into the operating system where it belongs, and really, all things considered, that would ultimately make ProTools MORE portable - 'cause today, the Mac-OS is very different than it was back then - today, it's very Unix-like, and if Digi actually took the time to kinda "complete the port" they've done, in terms of what they needed to do to get the application to work in a Unix-like environment, I think good things could come out of that effort, performance-wise and every-other-wise)....

But I'm making a different point. The point I'm making is not about PERFORMANCE. I'm not on a soapbox about how crappy these systems are. Quite the opposite - I LOVE these systems, but I really don't have the freakin' time to keep writing long stories about this stuff - the only reason I'm up here on the DUC forum is because Digi has FAILED MISERABLY in their efforts to provide me with a pleasant ProTools user experience (specifically now, in terms of the pain of installation).

Otherwise, I could use this forum for what it's intended - which is to exchange two seconds worth of technical information with someone halfway around the globe.

On the other hand, we have to get Digi to listen SOMEHOW, right? I mean, I know for a fact that they're up here listening. I also know for a fact that this information is being transmitted up out of this forum and into Digi, because I was just talking to one of Digi's tech writers the other day, and he'd not only already heard about it, but already had an answer for it.

I'm sorry, but I'm still new to this game. This is the first time in my career that I'm actually a ProTools APPLICATION user- now, I don't really have the TIME to be futzing with my computer anymore - that's like OVERHEAD, and even writing these words right now is OVERHEAD, and it's GOING to stop 'cause I really don't have time for it anymore -

The only purpose in doing this, was to GET HEARD BY DIGI, and clearly that's happened, so, to the other guy, thanks for your input but... I wasn't talking to you.

See, this kind of thing is really a shame - I should be up here on DUC asking specific technical questions, like for instance I just installed BFD and I'm getting some VERY strange behavior with the "groove notes" (and fortunately I have a workaround for that already) -

But I'm never going to GET to those kinds of issues if I can't get ProTools installed and working reliably. Yes?

Heard and understood. 'Nuff said.

[zombie69]

but I really don't have the freakin' time to keep writing long stories about this stuff

Could've fooled me.

[brandymania1]

And me""""


brandy