DV vs. Beta Sp etc...

[loopengine]

I tried to post this in the post area of duc, but no one visits that forum I guess so:

I need an opinion or two please if you have a chance.
I am a composer who is currently running a mixplus with a DV camera as my source for capturing video for composing to. I am considering getting a BETA SP player/machine control/usd or sync/ and an AVXL. All of this is on EBAY these days for around 6k.
The question is, should I just get a DV deck and keep working with firewire or is the machine control/Beta deck route really necessary. I really don't need to lay back to tape as I deliver audio CD's with two pops generally.
Beta SP is so universal right now, that it makes it easier on the producers to just send me that with no worries, e.g timecode embeded, no need for window burns on the DV.

[doug_hti]

How do you get DV in now.
If they have a high end DV deck, they can put selectable time code on the DV (unlike the consumer stuff and most lower end pro decks) that start at 00:00:00:00 no matter what.

BetaSP decks can be had at descent prices...so you really can go wrong having one around, even though digi beta is really taking over.

Back to DV, If you're loading in the footage as quicktime files, and unless you get a high end DV deck (above $6k maybe), just get a Sony DV camcorder from Best Buy and get an extended warranty.
Why?
Because it has the same transport as many of the lower end decks. It's portable. It's cheaper. It can read code. You can use it for other things. And the Sony can read both miniDV and miniDVCAM. It lays down miniDV, but the fact that it can read miniDVCAM has been great and the other consumer cameras can't do that. It can also play back NTSC or PAL. Just a thought if you want to save a few $s.

[derF]

Beta SP is solid. We use ours all the time for loading in picture and guide to mix, with the audio files straight from Avid via Digitranslator. No picture house should have any probs doing a SP dump tape for you. You will need the Machine Control extension for PT. You can easily get away with a Beta SP Player (S/H very cheap!). We don't have a recorder, and if you need to record back to tape it'll be DigiBeta anyway (we hire when required).

If your capture setup works for you, why change it? We have the AVOption and to be honest have nothing but problems on big sessions.

I think next time round we'll have a Pro Tools rig and a Video rig running VirtualVTR with Cinewave.

Full res vid and 64 tracks of audio is too much for one mac. Data bandwidth etc....... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[loopengine]

thanks,
I suspected that it was overkill to try and get an analog system going since everything is aiming toward firewire. As a matter of fact today digi just posted a whole bunch of firewire info on 6.1.\

I will stick with my DV for now, until I can think of reason to opt for a Beta SP.

One question though. How can you get the actual timecode of a DV deck in to pro-tools?

[bruceup]

Why don't you just ask for converted quicktime movies as your source? Every video post house I work with simply posts 320x240 QT movies on their FTP site for me. It downloads in a minute, and I've got video ready for Pro Tools import. No muss, no fuss. It's how I've avoided paying $6k for a Beta SP deck so far.

Also, if you ever need to convert Beta SP tapes to any type of QT format(even uncompressed for video editing), I can recommend a video house that does it for us when we need conversions done(they're fast and reasonable, and it still beats buying a Beta SP deck).

[dcornutt]

The timecode is recorded on to the tape.

Whether that's DV or analog.

Timecode can be generated internally within each deck...or...if your deck has the options..can be taken from an external source.

Typcially..analog ssetups use RS 422 for both machine control AND timecode in a master slave setup.

In DV..timecode is sent and recieved via firewire. Although higher end decks "do" have options such as RS 422..etc..but you can't use firewire usually in these cases.

But, these are the decks you'd need to do a direct dupe of a tape from beta to DV deck WITH timecode matchin both.

If you "dupe" the tape from one deck to antoehr...and they are both not being fed the the same smpte time (ie..one slaved to the other)...and machine controlled together..and both frame accurate....your "dupe" is going to only carry the timecode of the deck it's recorded to.

Consumer DV is stictly internal regen timecode. Prosumer stuff might allow you set a smpte start time. The higher end stuff...has multiple timecode options including being able to take timecode form an external fed source.

But, it's pricey.

I think what you might want to try...if I understand your question..or issue:

Is...DON"T dupe the analog tape to your DV deck.

Instead...Digitize it via firewire directly from analog ...by connecting the analog deck to the svhs input of your DV deck or ttranscoder.

This is called IEEE analog pass thru..and most transcoders and decks these days have this capability.

If you digitize directly from yoru analog source...it "should" be showing..and bring in..the timecode from that source with your captured clips. The only deal with this is...you can't "machine control" via firewire an external analog deck. You'll have hit play on the deck...and then punch record in your NLE to capture it. (just use plenty of "handle" space..ie..record some extra material on both ends).

Now...yoru DV clips..captured..should be showing the timecode they came from.

BUT, if you place them in the timeline of your NLE...they will loose that reference and take the timecode of your NLE start time..which is by defualt 00. You may be able to, depending on your NLE..set this to the start time of your clip.

If not...don't put the clips in the timeline. Instead..douple click them in the bin...to open them in the "edit" view window. And set in and out points for what it should be.

Then export it "directly" from there. You might have to experiment with this a little. But, you check yourself..by opening the exported clip...via QT player...and see if the start time of the clip...reads 00 or the timecode from your capture.

Once you get the QT clip showing the right timecode. Import it into PT and set PT's smpte start time to your clips smpte start time.

I'm not sure if that's what your asking..but hope it helps

[dcornutt]

I just double checked my last project.

The clips I pulled via analog pass thru "do" have the source timecode on it from the source tape. HOWEVER, exporting it to QT..always simply shows "play time"..ie...starts at 00 and plays to length.

In FCP...you can set the sequence start time under the modify menu...timecode.

It allows you to change the start time of the sequence from 00 to whatever you want.

I would try that. because I "think" what it's doing is taking the timecode form the sequence timeline no matter that the source clip pulls timecode is.

I haven't double checked that yet..but I will shortly.

IF QT always resets timecode to playtime...00..then any exported QT movie isn't going to work..you'd have to use the actual captures.

I'll do another experiment and post back later.

[dcornutt]

Just tried exporting from sequence by setting seq settings to the start frame.(smpte).

It didn't work...arrgh. Anything exported as QT movie..simply shows "playing time"..starting from 00.

I'll keep trying and keep an eye out for a solution.

[goep2]

Is this what you are looking for? Or is 'embedded' something I don't know....

I do dubbing with LE. Capture vhs with on-screen time code (taken from digi-beta) through dv-firewire converter. Then allign capture start to its appropriate smpte position in FCP-sequence. This makes it possible to check for previously dropped frames (in making vhs tape or in capturing) as on screen tc should match sequence tc.
I then add black frames for dropped frames and export as QT with defined in-out points.
Import in PT and spot to first frame. No problems, all sync...
Hope this helps....

[loopengine]

Thanks for your time here folks...

I know for a fact that most houses have DV decks. I always ask now for a DV copy with timecode as a window burn so when it is in protools I can just make the 00 time on audio and video start together. I think what I may be asking for is a "no-issues" solution for the busy director/producer, who could forget to send me the DV with Timecode window burn and set us back some time. It may be much a a do about nothing, but it would be cool if ProTools or this new MOJO from Digi would capture the actual timecode from firewire transfer. That way when you capture the DV video, you just open protools and import your DV quicktime and you are already synced up and ready, much like the BETA SP and Machine control solution, that I really want to avoid.