Intelligent Conform

[philip_purcell]

I've posted on this before, but think it's worth raising again....

I often have a situation that requires more than just simple conforming. I work on quick turn-around reality shows where sometimes the producers re-cut in a major way when sound post is complete or nearly complete. There often isn't time to start from scratch, but using something like Conformalizer or Virtual Katy isn't enough.

The recut often involves relatively complex re-structuring - so, for example, a scene may have a number of deletions, but the voice-over or music changes may overlap these, or music may be taken from a different scene and laid over the changes. Or an interview may be cut down and then laid over different background action. So a simple picture-track EDL cannot possibly reflect this. It helps, but I usually have to go back to raw AAF tracks and start again for significant portions, even though I have already edited and mixed these bits - just in a different configuration.

This suggests to me that there is a need for a program that compares an existing Pro Tools session to a new AAF, finds the clips that already exist, and re-arranges them to match the new AAF - even if they have been extended, shortened, crossfaded, or any of the other things that may have happened during the sound editing and mixing process. And, of course, preserves all their automation.

Any new material would be put onto new tracks, as happens with a conventional AAF import.

It seems to work in AVID - the on-line guys can re-link the new sequence and preserve most of the work they have done - why can't Pro Tools?

Surely there's a software designer out there prepared to take up the challenge?

(I know someone will say I'm not using Conformalizer or VK correctly - believe me, I have used them both, and they are great for some situations, but they are simply not built for this task.)

[Frank Kruse]

Originally Posted by philip_purcell

I've posted on this before, but think it's worth raising again....

It seems to work in AVID - the on-line guys can re-link the new sequence and preserve most of the work they have done - why can't Pro Tools?

because in a DAW there can be hundreds of elements playing during a single frame while on the picture side one frame is one frame with a unique ID (tc and source reel).

I know what you mean but what we need isn't possible as long as we do not ID or clips in a unique way like the picture dept. does.

there is no way a machine can differentiate between intentional differences and unintentional ones (the conforming errors you mention).

what you suggest could work between two AAFs but is extremely difficult between an AAF and a work-session. You would need an intelligence that is able to match untreated avid clips to your mixed ones that could have beed renamed spliced to different track and a myriad of other changes you did incl. audiosuite processing etc..

it could work within one system if you edited your sound in the avid.

in the future I see no reason why picture and sound apps should be separated. If there was only one unified app for both applications we wouldn't need to conform in the first place.

frank.

[The Cargo Cult]

yeah, you're both quite right.

it would be great to have a machine intelligent enough to figure it all out and we'd certainly put it to good use immediately.
but as Frank says the complexity is mindboggling and the margin for error huge.

apple did have something along these lines in soundtrack/fcp but it was an integrated system and I don't know how effective it really was.

but... as a kind of intermediate solution:
it is possible to get EDLs of specific tracks in Media Composer or FCP.
so you can ask for a picture EDL, a dial EDL and a Music EDL for each handover.
then when conform time rolls around you can compare the music EDLs for the music conform, Dial for Dial and Pix for FX/Amb

another idea we discussed briefly on my current job:
the new "export session info as text" in PT10 has a few more features
could it be possible to export a set of tracks (perhaps you AAF tracks) as text, convert to an EDL-like format using a (apple?)script, then compare these instead of video EDLs.
the untested part is getting "source timecode" out of PT.

so those ideas will get you closer than a picture conform alone but I agree that a super intelligent and flexible conform routine would be better.

justin

[soundworx]

What I would like - but I do video as well - is MCPT... MC now handles up to 7.1, RTAS plugs, so why not the ability to start up MC as a video-edit station OR as an audio post station (with the same features as PT now). Share projects with the editor, automatic syncing up etc...

[thermisonic]

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=311029

The idea of one app for picture and sound was discussed here.

In the long term I'm in favour of one app to do it all, with different window sets/GUIs depending on the task at hand. Whether that is possible with Avid's business structure is another question.

Rob Walker AMPS

[philip_purcell]

Justin

< so you can ask for a picture EDL, a dial EDL and a Music EDL for each handover.
then when conform time rolls around you can compare the music EDLs for the music conform, Dial for Dial and Pix for FX/Amb>>

Already thought of that one - unfortunately our editors don't lay up to a set pattern - music is mixed up with dialogue etc - I have to unpick it all in Pro Tools, and it is unlikely we could convince them to change at this point.

I just keep thinking, if I can do it manually with my feeble brain, surely a machine can be made to do it?

[mfranken]

Originally Posted by maggot

another idea we discussed briefly on my current job:
the new "export session info as text" in PT10 has a few more features
could it be possible to export a set of tracks (perhaps you AAF tracks) as text, convert to an EDL-like format using a (apple?)script, then compare these instead of video EDLs.
the untested part is getting "source timecode" out of PT.

Hi Justin,

If you want to extract the clip data of a Pro Tools track you can use EdiLoad. EdiLoad can import ptf and ptx files directly which gets around several bugs that exist in the PT export as text file.

I used this extensively on Happy Feet 2 while editing the main dialogue so we could edit temp animatic pictures that was grouped with its guide track. This way I was able to make the temp pictures work with the newly recorded/edited dialogue. I could then extract the edit data from the guide track, turn it into an EDL and give it back to the picture editors so they could auto conform their pictures to match my dialogue edit.

You could of course also use the EDL generated by EdiLoad to compare changes between an old and new Pro Tools (AAF) track. We used this method to track the changes made to the playback stems on the motion capture stage.

Regards,

Mark