Composers... Your tempo workflow...?

[Jon_Atkinson]

Hey all,
I write music for cartoons, and wanted to pick your brains on a "best" workflow for dealing with tempo changes in the timeline.
Till now, I've either been working in one of two ways:

1. Simply record each cue in a separate session with the tempo set for that specific cue. Export mix as audio, and re-import into a "master session".

2. When doing an episode which chops and changes all over the place, simply record all audio and MIDI completely freehand. The master tempo of the session doesn't get altered, and is effectively irrelevant.

Clearly there are plusses and minuses with both ways of working.

Method one is fine, and works well for cues which are longer... You get the benefit of being able to quantize, and can also play to a click. It's quite a slow workflow however.

Method two means no click, and no quantization, but the tempo can move all over the place... It also suits me to be able to work on a part of the episode at one tempo, then go to another section and work on that... then fill in the gaps at whatever tempo I feel suits the on screen action.....

I'm wondering if anyone has an 'in-between' methodology? Where they actually use the conductor track to change the tempo for differing sections of a session?
Bear in mind that I'm talking cartoons here not traditional film score.... So sometimes a section of music might last three seconds before changing tempo..!
There are definitely times when being able to quantize something to a click would be extremely helpful.... 32nd note xylophone parts being the obvious..!!!

The problem I see when trying to get my head round complex conductor track changes is: Whether I have my tracks set to ticks or samples, tempo changes in the conductor track affect MIDI information further along the session.... Either the MIDI stays correct to Minutes and Seconds, but loses it's position relative to the grid (and thus losing it's ability to be quantized) or it remains on the grid, but loses it's position relative to the picture....

In an ideal world I'd be able to always build up a score chronologically, and so changes in the conductor track wouldn't mess things up further down the time line.... But that's never going to happen... I'll always need to make alterations at any point in the episode.

I'd love to know if there's a way around this?

Thanks

Jon

[studiostuff]

Originally Posted by Jon_Atkinson

The problem I see when trying to get my head round complex conductor track changes is: Whether I have my tracks set to ticks or samples, tempo changes in the conductor track affect MIDI information further along the session.... Either the MIDI stays correct to Minutes and Seconds, but loses it's position relative to the grid (and thus losing it's ability to be quantized) or it remains on the grid, but loses it's position relative to the picture....

My workaround for this is pretty obvious, so forgive me if it's not what you're looking for...

I work with a "complex" conductor track, like when I'm scoring animated stuff. (Edited to add: I write my midi stuff using Digital Performer and then, record into ProTools. I keep both apps open and in sync with the visuals when I'm working which helps me to be able to make changes (rerecord) into the PT recorded cue without much trouble.)

I'll connect the beginning of my new repair material to the music I had in the cue before changes were made... and write from there using the new visual material without regard for how the repair music may be pushing or pulling on the location of my original material after the repair at the end of the cue.

After I have written new material for the change or repair... at that time I will see how much damage there is to the location of the music after the change/repair section. All of the original music will have retained it's original metric scheme in the conductor track... it will now just be early or late to the picture.

At this point, I'll go into the repair music I wrote and massage the end of it (the connection of the repair music to the end-of-the-cue music) using extreme tempi for a few beats... and/or perhaps with some long notes/chords when I can get away with it to push or pull the following cue music back into position with the visuals. I usually do this so it is not at all obvious to the listener.

Everything that was on the grid remains on the grid and lines up with the pics. In my animation writing, I usually find one or two random minor events that "escape" my grid and need to be hit... But unless I'm writing for human performance, I'll just drop those events where they need to be.

I do a lot of this work and it's never been a problem to work this way.

[mhender]

Jeez, I so wish that someone would have taken the great elements of Studio Vision and incorporated into Logic or PT. Tempo maps like this are still a pain in both. Studio Vision used to let you write sequences for each section and then drop them into a master sequence where you could lock playback to a SMPTE start point. You could even have multiple sequences playing with different tempos at the same time. This way allowed you to edit individual sections of the video without disturbing everything else downstream...

Maybe in my lifetime? Maybe not.....

[woodsdenis]

Digital Performer is the master at conductor tracks for picture. It has always been brilliant at this for 20 years but it lacks on loads of other things.

I think PT's implementation is the worst of the bunch, comes from being an audio program first and midi second, unlike all the others.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by mhender

Jeez, I so wish that someone would have taken the great elements of Studio Vision and incorporated into Logic or PT. Tempo maps like this are still a pain in both. Studio Vision used to let you write sequences for each section and then drop them into a master sequence where you could lock playback to a SMPTE start point. You could even have multiple sequences playing with different tempos at the same time. This way allowed you to edit individual sections of the video without disturbing everything else downstream...

Maybe in my lifetime? Maybe not.....

this sounds like DP and working with chunks. i dont use dp so maybe others can chime in.

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by studiostuff

My workaround for this is pretty obvious, so forgive me if it's not what you're looking for...

I work with a "complex" conductor track, like when I'm scoring animated stuff. (Edited to add: I write my midi stuff using Digital Performer and then, record into ProTools. I keep both apps open and in sync with the visuals when I'm working which helps me to be able to make changes (rerecord) into the PT recorded cue without much trouble.)

I'll connect the beginning of my new repair material to the music I had in the cue before changes were made... and write from there using the new visual material without regard for how the repair music may be pushing or pulling on the location of my original material after the repair at the end of the cue.

After I have written new material for the change or repair... at that time I will see how much damage there is to the location of the music after the change/repair section. All of the original music will have retained it's original metric scheme in the conductor track... it will now just be early or late to the picture.

At this point, I'll go into the repair music I wrote and massage the end of it (the connection of the repair music to the end-of-the-cue music) using extreme tempi for a few beats... and/or perhaps with some long notes/chords when I can get away with it to push or pull the following cue music back into position with the visuals. I usually do this so it is not at all obvious to the listener.

Everything that was on the grid remains on the grid and lines up with the pics. In my animation writing, I usually find one or two random minor events that "escape" my grid and need to be hit... But unless I'm writing for human performance, I'll just drop those events where they need to be.

I do a lot of this work and it's never been a problem to work this way.

very interesting. can u tell us more.
im having trouble understanding in which daws u are doing the above descriptions. im guessing u have 2 computers, one for dp and midi, the other with pt only. ? and u just record the stems submixes..

when u sync pro tools its to mmc/mtc its location to picture but not tempo changes right? PT stays on "slip mode"/same(whatever) tempo while all the music changes occur in DP and then u record over/insert them in PT. right?

as for your process, to see if i understood correclty, u start a "new cue" or session in DP for the new material but grab a small pieace of the end and begingin (chunks?) of the old version and do a new composition for the new movie, then u insert that into pro tools that has the old version and u insert a little before and after (which matches up to the old version) and after consolidate in PT the repair. am i in the ballpark here?

also, im guessing the pictire is in pro tools all the time. right?

sorry for so many quations, im interested in hooking up my logic rig cause logic is not the best for dealing with this stuff.. even worst, in 64bit u cant export audio to video!!! (yet)

[studiostuff]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

very interesting. can u tell us more.
im having trouble understanding in which daws u are doing the above descriptions. im guessing u have 2 computers, one for dp and midi, the other with pt only. ? and u just record the stems submixes..

Nope. One computer with both apps open. DP is driving PT, synching to Time Code. Midi is done in DP and I record and mix audio in PT.

when u sync pro tools its to mmc/mtc its location to picture but not tempo changes right? PT stays on "slip mode"/same(whatever) tempo while all the music changes occur in DP and then u record over/insert them in PT. right?

Nope. I create the conductor track in DP, then copy the conductor track info into PT (tempo changes and metric changes) so I can have everything on the grid in PT. Obviously, changing the tempo and rhythm info on the PT time line doesn't matter as far as sync-to-pic since it's all audio... but when you take the time to redo the info in PT, you will have accurate Bars/Beats locations in the PT counter should you then plan to overdub some humans, which I usually do after the midi stuff is printed and approvals are given.

as for your process, to see if i understood correclty, u start a "new cue" or session in DP for the new material but grab a small pieace of the end and begingin (chunks?) of the old version and do a new composition for the new movie, then u insert that into pro tools that has the old version and u insert a little before and after (which matches up to the old version) and after consolidate in PT the repair. am i in the ballpark here?

Nope. I basically work on the same cue in DP. (Obviously I work on a copy of it so I can keep all the stuff that is working.)

I'll create some space in the midi file to accomodate the repair... That way when the new visual material appears on the screen, I can just write new music for that material (connecting it to the original opening section of the cue, before the new material... all the same cue.)

When I get to the end of the repair, I'll remove the extra blank bars I may have added as scratch pad for the new music and adjust the tempo at the end of the repair section... until the keeper material I had previously written is back in place with the picture at the point that the repair section reconnects to the original ending of the cue. That point where the end of the repair used to occur on the downbeat of bar 55, may now be the downbeat of bar 85, but everything that follows will remain as it was in the original version.

I usually keep my synth stuff set up in such a way that I can just re-record the area of the repair into PT and then cross-fade each of the audio regions 'till smooth. But if there are many changes or a big change, I just re-record everything. Not stems, everything on its own track. Sometimes one only needs to change a melody to hit everything... and the chordal/rhythmic background tracks can remain in place as they originally were. It's a little fiddly (sp?), but it works for me.

also, im guessing the pictire is in pro tools all the time. right?

Yep! But it is a new picture version that contains the changes. Usually the picture will start at the same TC... but you may have to change the start code for your PT session and the DP session.

sorry for so many quations, im interested in hooking up my logic rig cause logic is not the best for dealing with this stuff.. even worst, in 64bit u cant export audio to video!!! (yet)

I can't help with Logic. I know many folks use it happily. I've been with DP since back when it was just P... and with PT since the beginning. Hope some of this helps...

[gsilbers]

Thx! Very informative. Ive never seen 2 sequencer in one coompiter setup before.
How do I tranfer the audio fron dp to pt? 2interfaces?

[studiostuff]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

Thx! Very informative. Ive never seen 2 sequencer in one coompiter setup before.
How do I tranfer the audio fron dp to pt? 2interfaces?

There is no audio in/from DP.

There is only midi info. The midi info fires synths that are routed through my mixing desk... and then sent where ever the audio is needed, usually into PT.

In the case of VIs, the DP midi info triggers the VIs, which are recorded directly into PT. In some rare cases, I'll import the midi info into PT and use the midi info from PT, to record in PT... but rarely because I don't think midi in PT is happening yet... (MHO only!)

So, no. One interface. The audio from the synths goes to the input of the Digi 192 and into PT. I guess it's a little old school, but it works like a bandit for me.

I've been using DP and PT at the same time, and in only one computer for (?) ten years or more. I bet lots of folks do it the same way. They're all just taking the weekend off....

[John_Toolbox]

I always keep everything as midi until the project is complete. I also use pro tools strictly for recording audio and mixing, all of my sequencing is done in logic. Whenever I start a project, I always go through and drop a marker at every scene change first. Then I usually pick a tempo that fits closely into the amount of space for each scene and start with that. I try to come up with a real simple sketch for each scene to make sure I have established a tempo for the entire project before I get into heavily orchestrating it.

I've never used Digital Performer but I've heard that the "chunks" feature really makes this easier.

One of the other things you can do is have multiple sessions, one for each scene, then you don't have to worry about shifting everything else around if you change a tempo. It really depends on how you like to work, and how many revisions the director is going to give you.