Any real advantage of TDM plugs versus Native?

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by BaileyBass

Gary, thanks for that clarification. I think it would also be helpful to hear from you regarding what version of PT you are seeing/using. I am particularly interested if PT8 is being used, and if not... why? Sorry to take this thread OFF topic, and DTS can feel free to fix that. SB

My personal system is PTHD 8.01. The facility where I do most of my mixing uses both PTHD 8.01 and PTHD 7.4. I see both versions coming from editors, but I'd say at least half are using 8. Some individual editors are using LE with DV Toolkit, but most of the editorial companies use either HD2s or HD3s. I believe those that are still on 7.4 may have postponed upgrading due to the cost of upgrading several systems with both the host ap and the 3rd party plugins. Many also still have Power PCs that they haven't replaced yet.

Most of the mixing facilities that I am familiar with that have conventional consoles like the DFC, MPC or System 5 have at least three HD3s for source material and record to either an HD2 or HD3. The larger facilities with ICONs generally have expanded systems - HD6s are ideal, but some make do with HD5s, especially if they do mostly TV work. I know of one beautiful facility with a System 5 Hybrid console that uses both Nuendo and Pro Tools. I believe the owner may prefer Nuendo, but has to have Pro Tools available as well because the vast majority of editors deliver Pro Tools sessions.

[acmost]

Originally Posted by ggegan

Just to be clear, I'm not anti Spice mix at all, I just work in a different situation and have different requirements. His point of view reflects his realities, which, though different from mine, are none-the-less perfectly valid.

Valid or not isn't even the issue...you don't hang out on the Logic Forum and trash their product at every given opportunity bragging on how for you, an HD6 rig works way better than a Logic Native system.

anyway...

[jimmyz]

Just to check...

So any RTAS plugs running on an HD rig will be subject to the round trip latency of the buffer size? i.e. if i have a vocalist set up to track to a session with buffer size 128 and some RTAS plugs in the session (but not in the vocal or vocal FX chains) I would get 128 latency (plus hardware latency)?

I figured that as long as you had no RTAS plugs running on the channel you are recording you would (like LE) be fine.

The problem I had the other day on a session was I had all TDM plugs but one delay plug running as RTAS causing latency for the guitarist. The guitar was not being send to this RTAS delay...

J

[hebro1]

Hi Guys,
I got this info from a blog off of GearSlutz. The guy commenting is Steve Massey, maker of Massey Plugins. But before that, he was a developer at Digidesign!!!!!!

I personally have NO Problems with working Native plugins once I beefed up my computer (12gb RAM) and had the Black Lion Audio Signature Mod done. I was going to invest in an HD system [before that] however, I just purchased the Complete Production Toolkit and now I'm Happy.


But Please Read the Following from Steve Massey:

OK. I usually bite my tongue when I come across this old, tired repetitious debate/complaint. But, all of these usual answers are completely wrong, even the truthful bit about TDM being a lot harder to develop

As someone that sells an RTAS+TDM version of all my plugins for exactly the same price, all for under $100, I think I have a credible opinion and don't have a vested interest in justifying my competitor's pricing policies. So here goes...

Let's start with some historical perspective. TDM is one of the oldest audio plug-in standards. TDM plug-ins have always been "expensive". And, their pricing range has been very consistent since they were introduced to the market. RTAS and other "native" plug-ins came to market much, much later. Emphasizing again, TDM plug-ins have been priced roughly the same all along. Mysteriously, this somehow translates into a conspiracy theory. Those sneaky, greedy plug-in companies are not to be trusted! How could they dare be so predictable and consistent!?

It should be obvious that the question posed is fundamentally flawed. It's inverted. "Why do RTAS-only plug-ins cost so much less?" is the genuinely fair question to be asking. Looking at it historically:

1. TDM plugins came first, and owners of TDM plug-in companies set a price for the product that would sustain all the various expenses of the company.

2. Additional TDM plug-in developers entered the market and emulated the pricing range of existing developers. Like with any business, they understood that the going market value was a proven indicator of how to successfully price a product and run a company.

3. TDM pricing has not shifted significantly until the last couple of years or so, meaning that the market demand has keep pace with the number of new companies entering the market. Most TDM plug-in companies are small, modest operations. These facts support my assertion that the market system has set a "fair" price for the product.

4. When the RTAS/LE market initially emerged, it was very small and extremely budget-conscious. Existing TDM developers had a few options if they wanted to cater to this market:

A. Sell only one product: A TDM+RTAS version at their pre-existing TDM-only pricing.
B. Sell two products. An RTAS-only version targeted at the LE market, and a TDM-only (or TDM+RTAS) version targeted for the TDM market. Additionally, let's assume they would be priced equitably, amortizing the costs across all users evenly based on the product they purchased.
C. Forgo this new market altogether & not sell an RTAS version at all.

A. was obviously a stupid, unrealistic choice. Consumer LE users absolutely could not afford the pre-existing professional TDM pricing. Companies would sell zero additional copies of the product after all that hard work.

Considering option B., here's a rough breakdown of the costs (time) for creating a plug-in. This is very ballpark -- mostly for illustration:

Core development: 60%
TDM: 20%
RTAS: 10%

Again, we assume the developer wants to be completely equitable and amortize the business costs across all customers -- because they are really worried about people ranting endlessly on forums about their pricing structure :) The above breakdown means that the RTAS-only version should sell for about 70% of the TDM+RTAS version. So, if we have an $800 TDM plugin, then the RTAS version should be priced at $560. But, you say: "Now they can drop the price altogether because they'll be selling more products!" OK, well, they still need to cover the new development and maintenance costs. But, fine, I'll run with that: In the early days, TDM customers easily outnumbered RTAS customers 10-to-1. So, they should have dropped the price to about 90%, because of the increased customer base: $800 x 90% = $720. That means the RTAS would be priced at $504. How many RTAS plugins would a developer expect to sell in the early "001 days" of the LE market, while being priced at $504? Probably about the same as case A: zero. Then, they would have lost 10% of their revenue because of that TDM+RTAS price reduction. Simply put, "Equitable pricing" would not have worked.

So, that only leaves option C: not sell anything to this new emerging LE market. Well, that's pretty stupid too. So, developers leveraged the one great thing about software. It's cheap to duplicate and distribute. They realized they had option D: Sell the RTAS-only version at an artificially reduced price. And, that's exactly what happened across the plug-in market.

5. Time has moved on. The native market has grown considerably. A lot of native-only developers have entered the market. But, they are generally much smaller, 1 to 2 man, operations and do virtually no marketing (low expenses). They are typically selling at a much, much lower price-point, which exacerbates the perception that TDM is "way overpriced". But, nothing much has shifted in the TDM market. The user base is fairly static at this point, perhaps even dwindling. The old-school TDM developer's landscape still looks the same. They still sell to the same professional customers. Sales of their native plug-ins probably aren't great, but they absolutely cannot drop their RTAS-only pricing which would only infuriate everyone further.

So, in short, there are two marketplaces: The professional TDM market and the budget-conscious LE market. If you want a professional customer base, and stay in business, you have to price high. And, if you want to exploit the power of numbers and sell to the LE market, you have to price much lower. TDM developers then also sell an enormously discounted RTAS-only version to pick up a few more sales, but the TDM sales are absolutely what keeps the lights on. TDM customers are not getting ripped off. In effect, they are being subsidized by those RTAS-only sales.

Steven Massey
High-end plug-ins for Pro Tools

[John_Toolbox]

I personally have NO Problems with working Native plugins once I beefed up my computer (12gb RAM) and had the Black Lion Audio Signature Mod done.

Two things you should know:

1. The Black Lion mod has nothing to do with plugins or the way they work, it is an improvement to your hardware converters, nothing more.
2. Pro Tools is still a 32 bit app, so anything over 4GB of RAM is not going to matter to it... unless you are hosting VI's outside of pro tools.

[Dog BBQ]

TDM is just a distraction from the truth!

[Barry Johns]

For the last 2 years, I've hardly used any TDM plugs while either tracking or mixing. Yes on some Aux' but that's it. If I need to track through a Plug, I'll use it in TDM, but as soon as I'm done tracking, I change it to RTAS. I've never had a single issue, not one. The only advantages to TDM over RTAS is to use while tracking, or if there is no TMD alternative. With the power of Mac's today, there is no reason to use TDM plugs in my opinion if there are RTAS options. People are much better served by upgrading their Mac than they are by buying an additional card, assuming your cards are PCIe. For folks on non PCIe systems, it's more complicated, but there are smart options if you watch for specials. Never do the Hardware Exchange from PCI to PCIe. Much cheaper to sell your system, buy a Mix system and upgrade from there.

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by johnnyv

I have an HD3 Accel rig on a new Mac Pro.

With something like the Waves SSL plugs, I can get about 10 times more instances using RTAS than I can using TDM. Given that, I'm not sure why I'd want to spend the extra dollars on TDM versions of plugs except those that people might want to track through.

For all I care you could instantiate 1000.000 more waves pi's on a native system compared to a TDM. But last I checked no one got a grammy for being able to instantiate the most plugs.

In a large native mix you would if you are using so many plugs need to up the buffer to about 2048. Now, what if you wanna record an additional take. Unless you are dealing with a robot or a guy with no timing the talent is going to deliver a pretty bad performance doe to the buffer size WHICH is the DELAY you have in RTAS plugs.

As long as you stay on 32 or 64 you should be fine. However, when I play a piano I can feel the difference between a buffer of 64 an 32. At 128 the lag is so big that I am getting difficulties with the timing.
I've got an LE rig and the newest MAc money could buy and I cannot mix 64 tracks with lots effects at a buffer of 64. Simply impossible. Whether Logic or PT LE

TDM has many many reasons for "being" MOST ain got dikk to do with the amount of plugs you can instantiate. At least IMO

[Firechild]

TDM plugins sound better

[Keybeeetsss]

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

In a large native mix you would if you are using so many plugs need to up the buffer to about 2048.

Sorry 25 but that is far from the truth now "if" u hav an updated computer.. Now yeah, if guys are still on old PPC|g5|g4, or older PC's then truth it is, but if not, false it very much is... I hav both & being that the Mac is an older G5 I much prefer mixing the LARGER sessions on the i7 because I DON'T hav to come off of 64buffers...

Originally Posted by Firechild

TDM plugins sound better

LMAO!!!