Projections on HD hardware lifespan/next move?

[JSR]

well Digi just went though a redesign for PCIe and w/ Apple about to drop yet another new motherboard I think it's wise not to put out new cards yet

The PCIe is not considered a redesign; it was mainly just a form-factor change. Yes, the pin-outs on the edge connector had to be swapped around; but there was no re-design; it was mainly a job for the CAD guys. If you look past the edge connector the cards are electrically the same.

Also, I said they were working on a new card, not releasing it tomorrow. If Digi waits to see what Apple does before starting R&D on new cards; they'll get killed.

Accel is old technology. It was really *WOW* a few years ago, especially after upgrading from my Mix++, but now; especially for $14,000 retail (HD-3), it really isn't that impressive. I'm not saying I don't like Pro Tools; I really woundn't consider anything else, and I've been a user for over 10 years; I'm just saying they really need to step the game up with the processing power of their cards, or the native market is going to kill them.

Newer plugins that are DSP intensive eat through my HD-3 in no time.

[Chief Technician]

I'm just saying they really need to step the game up with the processing power of their cards, or the native market is going to kill them.

I don't know about that. We just moved from MIX+ w/DSP Farm to HD|2 Accel, and I keep saying "Look at all the free DSP!" This is with the 64 voice engine and long ADC.

One thing that has me annoyed about HD is the WAVES super-tap 6 second delay has to be RTAS because Digidesign reduced the RAM available on the DSP cards. The other is that Mod Delay is in the "unsupported" folder on the install CD, and v7.1cs8 tries to load it as HTDM (according to tech support), so I have to go into each session and manually choose the RTAS equivalent for Mod Delay.

I would rather see Digidesign continue to fix "items" as they call them and then add features/functions afterwards. I plan on getting at least four (4) years out of my quad 2.5GHz G5 and HD|2 Accel before the next purchase on either front.

[Ginger]

The PCIe is not considered a redesign; it was mainly just a form-factor change. Yes, the pin-outs on the edge connector had to be swapped around; but there was no re-design; it was mainly a job for the CAD guys. If you look past the edge connector the cards are electrically the same.

Sorry, but you are totally incorrect about this. The electronics are not the same. The HD Core for PCI-E actually has a little more dsp than before. The name on the card is even different. This was covered here ad nauseam when the new cards came out. PCI-E handles data totally differently than PCI and they did have to do a redesign. This absolutely was NOT "just a form-factor change." I'm sure those who busted their rears to get these out quickly with barely any reliable info from Apple until actual cpu release wouldn't appreciate "it was mainly a job for the CAD guys."

"I'm just saying they really need to step the game up with the processing power of their cards, or the native market is going to kill them."

Uh.... I think that says more for my argument than yours. If native solutions are kicking their butts, doesn't that imply more aggressive software development?

Obviously if a native system is more powerful than what we have with cards, Houston... we have a problem. And it's in the software.

I never said Digi wasn't developing new hardware; just that I don't think it's their A1 priority right at this moment. (I love it when people take ones posts and completely distort them to make theirs look more reasonable.)


And you'd be surprised just how little human power they actually have for R&D. They're not as big a company as you might think. That's why you can easily get the same tech support person multiple times and even ask for them by name. Ever tried that at Apple or Microsoft? I'm pretty sure the card designers do some coding too and vice versa. They have to pool resources and focus on whatever their priorities are. They don't have "... CAD guys" per se. They have people who code, engineer & use CAD too.

[savage1]

Ten cents. I bit the HD hook in 2004 for the TDM plug ins. It seemed like a good value and I knew the value
of my TDM hardware would drop, so I traded up. But the thread is asking for projections. I think DIGI is going to stay numero uno with pros because they are going to respond to what we need with both hardware and software. What I would LIKE to see is
some support for integrating older systems and additional MACs/PCs, taking advantage of Gigabit and LAN. Plus, I do post and music and I can't ever get all my applications to work on one machine; I've got five computers, FIVE. The i/o is flexible, but per channel, it's expensive, so I've been looking into third party solutions. The [problem] is, that the DIGI stuff just works.

If I were them, I'd build a Gigabit box with 56 channels of i/o (lightpipe, analog, aes) with midi to work on a Quad G5 and offer an RTAS accellerator option that could use an old G4 or two PC's and create a VI farm in cluster mode. (© 2006 Savage Audio)
ProTools Omni HD!

(disclaimer; copyright reference is for entertainment purposes only and is not meant to imply any ownership of Digidesign Products
or services)

boohyah!

[Targon]

Sorry, but you are totally incorrect about this. The electronics are not the same. The HD Core for PCI-E actually has a little more dsp than before. The name on the card is even different. This was covered here ad nauseam when the new cards came out. PCI-E handles data totally differently than PCI and they did have to do a redesign.

I don't think he was 'totally incorrect'. Digi may very well have just gone the PCI -> PCI-e bridge chip route instead of a complete redesign based on PCI-e. Considering how promptly Digi had the PCI-e cards on the market (a jump of some 6 months on other card manufacturers) lends some credence to this possibility. Obviously the time, resources and expense on choosing this route may had been attractive to Digi.

PCI-e will be the basis of expansion for the next 10 years. The migration mess we have seen was due to Apple's indecision on playing dictator of future standards. We knew long ago the PC domain was all for PCI-e, Apple decided to prematurely obsolesce PCI rev 2.1 and move to PCI-X, as a consequence of that Apple and Digi made [bleep] load of cash in this bungle out of users, (a joint Apple/Digi marketing cash grab fleecing exercise is my suspicion) eg Digi001 owners could not use their card in new Mac's, were forced to buy a brand new Digi002 to obtain desperately needed CPU power since Digi didn't give a flying fsck about multi-processor machines and failed to optimize PT for those desperate Mac users with DP machines. At the same time the new Digi002 on FW caused a major reliability problems and displayed a regression of performance for users which were never existent on the stable Digi001 PCI architecture. The same occurred on the hi-end , users who wanted more DSP were forced to buy new Mac's and new Acell cards based on PCI-X. At times im sure Apple and Digidesign are one and the same.

For the low end the smartest thing Digi could do is to ship a PCI-e card with only MIX chips on it (not DSP for plugins) for zero latency I/O to avoid the driver latency hardware buffer issues on PTLE. RTAS plugs will continue to be processed via the host with the addition of Automatic Plugin Delay Compensation. Offer a new I/O box 16/16 analog and 16/16 optical I/O , monitor and headphone out with pots in a 1 Rack Unit. The card should allow users to buy an hookup existing HD interfaces. In addition an ExpressCard/34 solution should be offered which plugs into the side of a MacBook Pro (possible with little feet so it sits level with an open MBP) which also allows the user to buy an hookup the above mentioned I/O box's.
This is a win win win situation for Digi and Apple who cash in on new hardware sales and users finally can record, monitor and mix with zero latency and reliability without all the pops click, buffer errors and CPU restrictions that plague a host system. This should be seriously considered now that the expansion protocol on Mac's and PC's has a stable future.

[Lee Blaske]

I don't know why so many fear new hardware...I personally am hoping Digi releases new cards soon; it's been a few years since Accel - which is like decades in terms of the advances made in DSP processors; I'm sure there are way better/more powerful chips out now

I'm no expert on this (and feel free to correct me), but I remember reading that the Motorola DSP chips that Digidesign uses have reached a dead end development wise. More powerful DSP is undoubtedly available, but would most likely require substantial recoding. That might entail a delay.

Lee Blaske

[Chief Technician]

...Digi didn't give a flying fsck

Now that's funny!

about multi-processor machines and failed to optimize PT for those desperate Mac users with DP machines.

001? The only companies I know of that wrote multiprocessor software for OS 9 were Apple and Adobe (Photoshop).

For the low end the smartest thing Digi could do is to ship a PCI-e card with only MIX chips on it (not DSP for plugins)

You mean the short-lived MIX I/O card? There may be a reason why it was so short lived, yes?

Offer a new I/O box 16/16 analog and 16/16 optical I/O , monitor and headphone out with pots in a 1 Rack Unit.

The closest thing to that is a 96i I/O, yes? I doubt that Digidesign would design a product to those specs for LE users only. HD users may find it just as useful, and with the exception of the Command|8 (born from the 002), we seem to get things first.

The card should allow users to buy an hookup existing HD interfaces.

If you want HD, you will have to buy HD. This is how Digidesign has done business in the past. Why would they change?

In addition an ExpressCard/34 solution should be offered which plugs into the side of a MacBook Pro

That's the first thing in this post that makes sense!

...users finally can record, monitor and mix with zero latency and reliability without all the pops click, buffer errors and CPU restrictions that plague a host system.

I have three letters for you. TDM.

[JFreak]

Yes, but the price should be between LE and HD

Exactly. The entry-level HD system costs ten thousand euros and that's twice the price it should be. Whole lot money for the privilige to run TDM-only plugins.

[roberts]

HD 1 systems with a 96 i/o can be found for 6000.00 (Or less) Euro direct from the US.