What is my weakest hardware link? (be gentle)

[mtnman]

I'm a noob when it comes to PTLE and audio engineering in general. Please be gentle and feel free to point me to some 101 info elsewhere . My question relates to what I'll call a lack of "body" in my vocals.

This as a hobby for me. I record myself playing and singing in a Jack Johnson type of style (Takamine 6-string acoustic/electric and Seagull 12-string acoustic) in my home office with no room treatments. My use of the system right now is to get song ideas recorded and explore the better ones. At some point I'll want to put together a compiliation of self mixed and mastered work. I'm not looking for commercial success as a result of my musings - even though I think I'm really good . The end results will stay within my friends and family circles.

My current signal path is as follows:

Audio Technica AT3030 => XLR cable => MBox 2 Pro => AKG K240DF headphones

Before the MBox I was using the following path:

Audio Technica AT3030 => XLR cable => Behringer Eurorack MX 1602 => Line L/R => Roland VS840 => AKG K240DF headphones

That sounded much fuller to my untrained ears. So I'm curious what I can do to improve the signal path. I know throwing money at hardware won't fix my lack of skills. But I'm wondering if I even have the right tools at this point.

If I were to spend around $500 what should I focus on? The mic? Adding a preamp like the Grace 101? Would $1000 buy both at a decent enough level to make a significant difference? Should I take an engineering course?

I don't use monitors right now because the only time I have for this hobby is when the family is sleeping. My cans don't ever seem to get loud enough. I've read there are better mixing headphones - should I focus on that?

The proverbial "save until you can buy better gear" doesn't really apply because the issue isn't having the cash, but making sure all my other hobbies get some love .

What would you do?

[mano111]

I'm gonna attribute the diffrence in recordings from the past and the current one to either diffrences in mic position or to a diffrent EQ or gain settings on the eurorack or Roland recorder. I don't think your current setup is infirior in terms of signal path.

With that said its always good to have a decent mic pre. Never used a grace 101 so cant commet on that specific one.
If you are recording accoustic It would be better to have 2 mics. Use the AT3030 pointed at the guitar and use another mic for vocals. Rode NT1A (condenser) or Sure SM58 (dynamic) are 2 examples of low budget microphones that might do the trick.

If you still own the beringer mixer it could be used as a headphone amp for some decent levels in the cans.

Don't invest too much on hardware as its only for "within your friends and family circles", but rather invest in learning how to get a better recording and mix.

[AlexLakis]

From what you've listed, the Mbox itself is the weakest link, in my opinion. Something like an Apogee Mini-Me hooked up via SPDIF would give you much better conversion, as well as better pres, better clock, and even some compression. It's probably overkill in your situation, tho. Before that, I'd consider investing in room treatment. Your recordings will sound better and you might even quiet things down in the process since the fam needs their sleep! If you're fine with the way things are sounding in the room, invest the $500 in another hobby and just keep recording, trying new things out, and learning. Maybe use the money to book a real studio and watch/learn from the engineer (cheaper than school and you get tracks out of it!) Or save the money and get a professional to mix and DEFINITELY master your final tracks when you're ready. You'll thank yourself later.

Good luck, and enjoy!

[albee1952]

Tradidtionally, the AKG phones are high impedance and not very loud so another set of phones will be much louder. I like the Sony 7506 and VR600, the Sennheiser 280's and the UltraSone line(much more money).

[GTBannah]

Originally Posted by albee1952

....and the UltraSone line(much more money).

Slight Hijack here ....

Which of the Ultrasones? (Forget the Edition 9s!)

[paulreed]

Originally Posted by GTBannah

Slight Hijack here ....

Which of the Ultrasones? (Forget the Edition 9s!)

I have a pair of their 650's and love them, I keep them for myself in the control room, use myself occasionally for tracking, and even use them to check mixes sometimes. I use the Sennheiser 280's for clients to use for their tracking, I think they keep the sound in your hear and not into the mics best....and they get very loud!!!

[The Weed]

+1 for the Sennheiser 280's. Your ears will normally bleed before they will. They're also good at keeping out ambient sound.

Cheers,

[GTBannah]

Thanx!

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by mano111

I'm gonna attribute the diffrence in recordings from the past and the current one to either diffrences in mic position or to a diffrent EQ or gain settings on the eurorack or Roland recorder. I don't think your current setup is infirior in terms of signal path.

Good observation - mic position is consistent. However, I don't remember if the EQ on the mixer was tweaked - same for the gain on each.

Originally Posted by mano111

With that said its always good to have a decent mic pre.

That is what I've been reading, I just don't know how much difference a low end model ($500-800) would make.

Originally Posted by mano111

If you are recording accoustic It would be better to have 2 mics. Use the AT3030 pointed at the guitar and use another mic for vocals. Rode NT1A (condenser) or Sure SM58 (dynamic) are 2 examples of low budget microphones that might do the trick.

I do normally use two mics (semi stereo) for acoustic recording - the AT3030 and (I should have mentioned in the original post) the Audio Technica ATM41HE dynamic mic.

Originally Posted by mano111

If you still own the beringer mixer it could be used as a headphone amp for some decent levels in the cans.

Another good suggestion. I tried that, still just can't get enough volume to discern clarity.

Originally Posted by mano111

Don't invest too much on hardware as its only for "within your friends and family circles", but rather invest in learning how to get a better recording and mix.

I figured I need to spend time learning the trade so I can apply it to my hobbiest interests. But I'm open to dropping cash if my stripped wrenches can't 'git er dun...

Thanks for the input!

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

From what you've listed, the Mbox itself is the weakest link, in my opinion. Something like an Apogee Mini-Me hooked up via SPDIF would give you much better conversion, as well as better pres, better clock, and even some compression. It's probably overkill in your situation, tho. Before that, I'd consider investing in room treatment. Your recordings will sound better and you might even quiet things down in the process since the fam needs their sleep! If you're fine with the way things are sounding in the room, invest the $500 in another hobby and just keep recording, trying new things out, and learning. Maybe use the money to book a real studio and watch/learn from the engineer (cheaper than school and you get tracks out of it!) Or save the money and get a professional to mix and DEFINITELY master your final tracks when you're ready. You'll thank yourself later.

Good luck, and enjoy!

Interesting - the MBox is the weakest link. I've been wondering if I just trade up to the 003 for $1500. Regarding room treatment - I'm going to be finishing my basement next year and am planning a dedicated tracking/control room. So for now I'm going to hold off on treaments.

My other hobbies (ex: 150" home theater screen setup) would like your input. I've tracked in real studios, but my goal is to tinker. I see a common thread here - focus on maximizing current gear until I understand the limits and then focus on upgrades.

Originally Posted by albee1952

Tradidtionally, the AKG phones are high impedance and not very loud so another set of phones will be much louder. I like the Sony 7506 and VR600, the Sennheiser 280's and the UltraSone line(much more money).

I read about the impedance the other day. Thanks for the recommendations - looks like I'll be picking up the 280's tomorrow.

Originally Posted by GTBannah

Slight Hijack here ....

Hijack away!

Originally Posted by paulreed

I have a pair of their 650's and love them, I keep them for myself in the control room, use myself occasionally for tracking, and even use them to check mixes sometimes. I use the Sennheiser 280's for clients to use for their tracking, I think they keep the sound in your hear and not into the mics best....and they get very loud!!!

Originally Posted by The Weed

+1 for the Sennheiser 280's. Your ears will normally bleed before they will. They're also good at keeping out ambient sound.

Cheers,

Thanks guys - I'm gonna get em tomorrow.

[HeySchlitz]

I like that you keep your chain simple. There isn't really any reason to go nuts (although you read enough recording forums and you'll be convinced you need way more than you need). I recently picked up an mbox mini for a second setup, and it sounds the same as my 003 to me....I was actually very surprised by this in a good way.

I use an SCA n72 mic pre in my vocal chain and I compared it to the built in pre on the mbox and the difference is noticeable but also subtle. The n72 sounds more full and detailed, but the pre on the mbox certainly wasn't bad at all. However, I notice a huge difference with mics that require more gain like the sm7...on mics that require less gain tho, it wasn't such a huge leap.

I would recommend trying a different mic. I just picked up an AT4047 off ebay for $370 and it's awesome. I can see why it's recommended for a male vocal a lot. But do some research and you'll probably see the same things get recommended over and over. There isn't a magic bullet, but finding a good mic for your voice is especially important when you're the only one singing through it.

One other thing I noticed is you said you record yourself playing and singing. Try laying down the guitar and vocal separately and mess with eq. Sometimes you get bleed from the guitar into the vocal that you can't dial out or is emphasized when you try to eq.

good luck in your search!