Vidéo Satellite—How accurate the sync?

[smurfyou]

I agree it would be useful to know what your goal is. Because this workflow really isn't used much anymore as stated above. It worked fine but is impractical on many levels.

I can't answer if it's sample accurate. That's guaranteed between two HD systems with sync peripherals. Not sure why it would need to be since you wouldn't be punching in with MC. It would definitely be frame accurate and yes it would be consistent.

[analogue_gal]

Thanks, smurfyou. That was very helpful—thank you!

I’m a contemporary composer working with video, which I edit as I’m scoring. Because I’m making changes to the picture as I’m composing, I play back the dialogue track from the video editing software. I’m exploring Video Satellite as a potential solution for getting significantly better sync than MTC. I worked as an audio engineer for many years, so yea, I also witnessed the changes in workflow that you’re alluding to.

I decided to post to this forum to see whether I could find that needle in the haystack who happens to be using Video Satellite to run Media Composer in sync with PT. Or perhaps someone willing to run a test…? It’s a lot of money to shell out if I’m not going to be assured by AVID that I’m going to get a lot better sync than I do with MTC.


As for Garret calling _me_ out as snarky in response to its2loud’s having been patronizing to me—none of it looks good on either of you. If you don’t find itstooloud’s response as patronizing, try giving it another read. Maybe I should have just used the moniker “analogue” instead of “analogue_gal” and we’d not be here? Or maybe you’d treat a man asking questions you don’t know the answer to just the same—I’ve seen that as well when I worked in radio. You know, it’s OK to say, “I don’t know”, instead of going after red herrings like where someone might quote a definition of frame accurate from. Please find me AVID’s definition of frame accurate—I’ll buy you both lunch.

[analogue_gal]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

It would definitely be frame accurate and yes it would be consistent.

Will—I just re-read your reply. Are you saying that you know for certain that the sync wouldn’t be soft / that it could simply be addressed with an offset?

[its2loud]

The reason I asked if you were using a MOTU interface and why you were looking on their website is because frame accuracy Satellite Link is not guaranteed if you are not using an HDX system with a Sync IO or Sync X.

Also the reason why I sent you to those links.

It’s been stated before that you are wanting to setup an antiquated workflow and spend thousands of dollars on a system you simply do not need. Thousands of editors and mixers work daily with picture playing directly out of Pro Tools with frame accuracy. The advice given by others in the thread are simply to aid you in spending needless amounts of money. At the end of the day, that choice is yours.

Im not sure why you bring your gender into the discussion. There was nothing that was said that had anything to do with your gender. In fact, I never even gave it a thought.

My apologies if my approach was received as patronizing. I have a very direct response approach with all of my responses. I’m very matter of fact. Reading text and interpreting with your own voice in your head can often lead to a such a misunderstanding. I can understand if someone’s receives that as patronizing. I can assure you that was not my intention. Perhaps if you were to go back and re-read it, you might change your mind. I wish you the best of luck in setting up your system.

There is a lot of definition in here regarding Avid Video Engine performance in Pro Tools which you may find helpful. BTW, the video engine used in Pro Tools is the same Avid Video Engine that’s used in Media Composer.

https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/ar...ralPerformance

[smurfyou]

Originally Posted by analogue_gal

Will—I just re-read your reply. Are you saying that you know for certain that the sync wouldn’t be soft / that it could simply be addressed with an offset?

Yes that's what I was saying. Although I can't guarantee it. I don't have any means of testing it. But that's the idea of Satellite Link, it syncs the transports as tight as possible. But Avid is very nebulous about sync. True repeatable sync in PT is only possible with a Sync HD / Sync X locking to the same sync source as the video output peripheral. Any satellites would also need to have the same setup. If MC was also referencing that same source that should do it.

That sounds like really interesting work. If you can share any I'd like to check it out. I've heard of some editors using LTC/MTC to drive sequencers. Once it locks it should give you that +- half a frame that MOTU specifies. You do get sloppy starts and it could potentially drift over an extended time with MTC. Hard to say that it's worth the expense of Satellite though. It's a lot

I'd want a solid answer from Avid too, which might be impossible to get. You're in a big metro area, I wonder if you could rent an HD system to give it a try. I would not recommend going through with it without personally testing it.

[analogue_gal]

Its2loud:

I’m cutting the picture while I’m composing—that’s why I can’t follow a “traditional” workflow. I have spent a good deal of my career working to locked picture; mostly in sound editing; some composing, so yes, I am fully aware that’s how it’s typically done.

Given how many mash-ups are being made these days, I’m sort of surprised that the NLE software developers haven’t all included this functionality. I’ve been asking for it for 10 years now.

Thanks for the apology. Irrespective of how the misunderstanding occurred, it means a lot that we could come to a mutual understanding. Looking forward to moving forward from here :)

[analogue_gal]

Originally Posted by smurfyou

But Avid is very nebulous about sync.

Yea, what is up with that?! I’ve asked in about 6 ways for a hard number—partial frames or milliseconds—but am yet to get a clear answer. I thought maybe I was missing something, so consulted with the senior audio engineer I apprenticed with over 30 years ago, as well as another sound editor colleague. While my mentor it turns out has no experience with film sync, my sound editor colleague concluded as you and I have that it’s a yes, probably, but also would like some hard numbers thx.

While I was trying to get to the bottom of this question, I did run across an old article on ProTools Expert about Video Satellite LE—not sure how applicable because we’re not talking about Video Satellite LE but Video Satellite, and the article is from a while ago. Also, that the author is stating that the sync is soft up to 1/2 frame doesn’t sound right to me, because at worst one would expect it would be closer to a 1/4. Nonetheless, the take-home here is that users were experiencing soft sync: https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/hom...o-satellite-le

“Video Satellite LE is a useful way of externalising video playback for post production sessions, leaving the main computer to deal with just audio and easing the load on the GPU. Whilst it is technically possible to run audio from the Video Satellite LE machine, it's probably best avoided as sync is only accurate to roughly +/- half a frame. However, if you have a laptop and a second Pro Tools licence, it can be a good way to free up resources on the administrator system and it provides a separate screen to run full screen video.”

Ah, the world has changed so much since the days of rec.audio.pro… When Apple gave a sh*t if their audio engineer clients were happy with their products; when if you had a technical question from any company, you’d call and speak with someone, and weren’t instead encouraged to post to bulletin boards (I just encountered this yesterday when inquiring with DaVinci about some TC questions). Seems, these days, the only sensible thing to do is ask a specialized sales person questions. Which I’ve done. Hopefully he’ll run a test for me.

I post that I live in Toronto to make things easier, but we actually moved to a rural area outside the City a couple of years ago. I have a very good friend who lives in Asheville. What’s the industry in Charlotte like? Are you in film or music or…? Please feel free to send me a PM—I’ll send you some info about my work.

[Mixchump]

I don't have any direct experience with Video Satellite, but I was certainly unimpressed with locking two ProTools rigs together with Satellite synch. Both systems digitally clocked together, would yield wildly different results and even when testing a digital transfer of a 'pop' from one rig over to the other and compensating for the offset, it would still only lock to the equivalent of MTC (as in, a quarter frame either way, or straight on - so at least 3 possibilities...) Thank GOD they opened up the voice count, so I never had to do that again...

[audiolex1]

I haven't scene any problems with Satellite on the multiple stages I have been on. Other than it falling offline or having to re connect it.

I mean maybe there can be issues with it under circumstances when it isn't setup correctly.
I've had lock issues with Sync IO 15 or so years ago through LTC.

But for the most part, I've seen Satellite work and in sync. Multiple systems locking and recording.

Everyone has a preference that they are most comfortable with. Just go with what you feel is most trustworthy for you.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

I have been doing some extensive video tests for sync and testing different hardware, both referenced and un-referenced, (HDX, native etc, AJA and BM and Video Sync PRO)
I will be publishing my results sometime and will make them available for the community.

Measurements were done with Harkwood’s Sync One-2.

The results may be surprising….

I didn’t test satellite - but it wouldn’t be that hard for me. I don’t have a MC license this year (I did last year), but I could run Video Sat Pro Tools (I have a secondary PT license) as a slave to my HDX rig. My studio (apart from a fly rig) is mostly in storage until I move to a new location sometime in the next month.


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