HDX or Native in this scenario

[Nephew312]

I’m making the jump from a third party interface to an avid system. I’ve heard using HDX when tracking with native plugins can hinder your system in terms of latency when tracking.

My question is this.. in 2020, is tracking with aax native auto tune or reverbs still a no go for HDX systems? Unfortunately a lot of my clients prefer to track this way and monitor themselves through auto tune, aux effects or both. I’m just trying to figure out what the better route is.. HDX or Native.

I know this has been discussed before but I’d like to hopefully get some feedback from some of you guys using these plugins. My rep at the shop I am purchasing the gear from is telling me there shouldn’t be an issue with HDX.

[albee1952]

While there "shouldn't" be an issue with HDX, that doesn't mean there won't be, or that you need to spend that much money Here's my thoughts, based on my own experience:
1-Tracking with AutoTune has never made sense to me(unless you are going for the typical T-Pain/Cher overdone effect) and I would suggest that my singers learn how to sing....(okay, rant over)
2-Tracking with reverbs should not be an issue(although there might be some that work better than others in regards to latency or system usage)
3-HDX is a large investment and you might be perfectly happy taking the route I took, which follows(for a commercial studio in Nashville):
I went with an HDN card(available used for under $1K now). I started off with a single HD IO(8x8x8) and a used 192. In short order, I added a second HD IO and a second 192 and ran 32 preamps(for tracking), 6 stereo headphone mixes, 8 hardware inserts(which never got used) and still had room for more preamps(total of 64 IO available).

My typical band tracking session had 14 drum tracks(plus bus compression and reverb on AUX tracks), Bass DI and Mic(if they brought an amp), 4 tracks for acoustic(with reverb on an AUX), 4 tracks for electric(with 2 mono reverbs on AUX), a stereo keyboard track, 2 stereo Instrument tracks(with DB-33 and MiniGrand), a stereo Master track, 4 vocal tracks(with reverb and delay on AUX tracks) and 4 AUX tracks for talkback mics. All headphone mixes were done from PT with AUX sends and the session was well-populated with plugins(all drums had a channel strip, bass had EQ and BF76, acoustics had EQ and BF76, vocals had EQ and compression and at least 5 reverbs. With the playback buffer set to 64(48K sample rate), I never had an issue and never heard any mention about latency(no plugins with more than 10-11 samples of latency were used while tracking). My template also had another dozen plugins that were inactive while tracking(because of their latency). This was done on a second-hand HP z820 12 core PC that cost me less than $1500

I should also mention that I know a few HDX users that wish they could have the option to revert to native for mixing. And on the subject of tracking with AutoTune, while I never did it, I seem to remember that AutoTune Live 8(which I had in that studio) did run with no significant latency. And you could always keep that plugin inactive till needed, and freeze as you add tracks(so you don't have several active versions while you need a low buffer setting).

That's my experience. Now lets hear from others

Just a little more info:
My tracking reverbs were IK Classik Room(drums) and Plate(vocals), Sparkverb(acoustics) and Dverb(mono electric guitars)
Bass always had an AUX track with IK Amplitube SVX(Ampeg B-15 model)
The 4 talkback mics(on AUX tracks) were control room, drum room, main room and producer's desk(boundary mics) and were controlled with Sound Radix Mute-O-Matic plugin
Delay was either Echoboy or Waves H-Delay(if Echoboy, I would disable ADC on that strip as Echoboy has 32 samples of latency)
All vocal tracks had EQ III>BF76>SMACK!>Pultec(Bomb Factory version). At mix time, I would usually swap the BF Pultec for Waves Puigtech(but not always).
At one point, I added Softube's Console 1 to the setup and it added 7 samples of latency, which did not seem to affect any musicians(nobody ever mentioned latency in the phones unless I screwed something up)

[Nephew312]

Thanks for the insight! I wish I could tell every artist that came in “learn how to sing” haha. Doubt I’d have any paying clients left tho!!! I think it’s more so a specific type of effect they are looking for. They want to bend the notes and be in key. TBH if I could avoid it completely I would!

I’ve been using a third party dsp version of Antares with their interface and it’s just time for me to cross the bridge and go full avid. I mean as long as HDX has been out you’d think avid would have developed a pitch correction dsp plug or at least delegated the task to a third party by now! It’s a useful tool regardless, and tbf we had Antares auto tune on tdm! Why not on HDX?!?!

It’s literally the only thing missing from a dedicated system for me and it’s unfortunate because a lot of these artists that are popular right now prefer to track with AT. Not all, but a lot of them.

I guess I just want to make sure I don’t have a latency downfall if I invest in a HDX rig you know?

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by Nephew312

Thanks for the insight! I wish I could tell every artist that came in “learn how to sing” haha. Doubt I’d have any paying clients left tho!!! I think it’s more so a specific type of effect they are looking for. They want to bend the notes and be in key. TBH if I could avoid it completely I would!

Just become a tracking nazi and record as many takes on different playlists that you need for proper comping. After that, tune the worst notes.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by Nephew312

track with AT

Only useful scenario is with bass that has poor intonation.

[Nephew312]

Thanks for the responses.

For me it’s more so- do I need to keep something around for those specific tracking scenarios where they must monitor through the AT? Will I get unnoticeable latency numbers with the auto tune artist plugin in the chain with HDX to the point where the artist won’t notice? I know natively you can do this because I have used non UAD powered auto tune and it works through the Apollo. I just haven’t tried on HDX yet.

Price is a non-issue. I am already invested in avid products, have ultimate and recently gave up my Apollo’s for an avid mtrx. At this point, I know I have successfully worked with auto tune in a native environment and believe me, if these artists wouldn’t ask for it, I wouldn’t even think twice about it. But some want to monitor through it when they record.

The dsp solution with Apollo is great. Unfortunately, what pushed me to the decision is after using X16’s to stem out mixes to my analog console, I kept feeling like I wasn’t getting the best conversion I could get and kept having to eq again or things would thin out and and i’d loose more then I would like in the process. Plus hardware inserts didn’t behave like an avid interface and had to be accounted for. I was not working as fast as I would have liked. I have lots of outboard that I want to selectively use at times. So my solution was 2x UAD octo cards, and get rid of the Apollo’s. Maybe keeping one apollo is smart if I will have drawbacks with HDX though?

Along with that, there are many other factors for why I went back to HD/HDX. With mtrx, there’s so much more functionality, and I’m looking at the unit as basically future-proof. My new control room isn’t finished yet, but with the spq card there is bass management and I am able to tune and do adjustments With DADman.. If I want the subs on with the mains at +3 because the rap guys are coming in, I can do that easily. Or different rooms being networked together in the same building, the rooms can communicate if needed with the Dante card.

Honestly yes, you may have limitations with an HDX1 system but that’s something that can be expanded. Does it cost more? Of course. That’s talk for another day though.

[s.d. finley]

Originally Posted by Nephew312

Thanks for the responses.

For me it’s more so- do I need to keep something around for those specific tracking scenarios where they must monitor through the AT? Will I get unnoticeable latency numbers with the auto tune artist plugin in the chain with HDX to the point where the artist won’t notice? I know natively you can do this because I have used non UAD powered auto tune and it works through the Apollo. I just haven’t tried on HDX yet.

Price is a non-issue. I am already invested in avid products, have ultimate and recently gave up my Apollo’s for an avid mtrx. At this point, I know I have successfully worked with auto tune in a native environment and believe me, if these artists wouldn’t ask for it, I wouldn’t even think twice about it. But some want to monitor through it when they record.

The dsp solution with Apollo is great. Unfortunately, what pushed me to the decision is after using X16’s to stem out mixes to my analog console, I kept feeling like I wasn’t getting the best conversion I could get and kept having to eq again or things would thin out and and i’d loose more then I would like in the process. Plus hardware inserts didn’t behave like an avid interface and had to be accounted for. I was not working as fast as I would have liked. I have lots of outboard that I want to selectively use at times. So my solution was 2x UAD octo cards, and get rid of the Apollo’s. Maybe keeping one apollo is smart if I will have drawbacks with HDX though?

Along with that, there are many other factors for why I went back to HD/HDX. With mtrx, there’s so much more functionality, and I’m looking at the unit as basically future-proof. My new control room isn’t finished yet, but with the spq card there is bass management and I am able to tune and do adjustments With DADman.. If I want the subs on with the mains at +3 because the rap guys are coming in, I can do that easily. Or different rooms being networked together in the same building, the rooms can communicate if needed with the Dante card.

Honestly yes, you may have limitations with an HDX1 system but that’s something that can be expanded. Does it cost more? Of course. That’s talk for another day though.

For our AT use it's strictly hip hop/rap/pop stuff where it is 100% needed to get THAT sound. Not for pitch correction, when that is needed I will reach for Melodyne after doing as JFreak suggest to comp with playlists the holy mackerel out of the artist, comp for the best take and THEN pitch that. IIRC back in the old TDM days you could eat up voices and cause huge amounts of latency by having an RTAS plug in AFTER a TDM. Not sure if that is the case with HDX, as having a Native plugin after DSP would still cause extra latency. One thing I have noticed is with our Apollo 16s with a trashcan MP6.1 and PT Ultimate is the buffer goes down to 32. I have accidentally been tracking rap vocals with AT @96khz using the 64 buffer with about 10 or so plug ins, open the usage window and almost have a heart attack because the usage is pegged but the session didn't stop. HD native system would not have done that. HDN seems a little more finicky with very low buffers and many plug ins IME.

[Mark Ziebarth]

HDX for realtime purposes is what’s left in most scenarios. I had all Pro Tools DSP platforms before HDX (Pro Tools III, Mix and HD) but left for HD Native two years ago. Monitoring with 64 Samples runs smoothly and my mixing can be done on every mac I connect my iLok with.
HDX cards are around 2000 Euro/USD but the plugs are more expensive than the native versions like Pro Tools Ultimate is double the price than vanilla... You can grab used interfaces to save money. I’m still using my old 192 I/O and am still satisfied with the sound.
If it’s for realtime Autotune monitoring only it’s an expensive solution imho.
For mixing and editing there’s no need for dsp solutions nowadays.

Best

Mark

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by Mark Ziebarth

Pro Tools Ultimate is double the price than vanilla.

Yes, but you need Ultimate for HDN also

[henningaround]

Be aware that IF you choose the HDX route with one card your system will have a huge bottleneck these days. Take into consideration that if you have HDX you must use it to use your DigiLink Interface. And with one card you will run fast into a dead end because it has to handle all mixer tasks. If you once started to use all inserts on your tracks for convenience your DSP chips on that one card will be full soon. I cannot run a simple 90 feature mix on one card.