Fix phasing with nudging?

[odysseys]

interesting thread.

[Travis Mitchell]

Try it by all means. But when you think about it , the kit is bleeding into all the mics , snare into the toms , toms into the hi hat etc. You can't compensate for that as well.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha. This topic didn't get near as ugly as i thought it would.

You are a good man Daniel. I wondered how long it would take someone to point that out.
Also, thanks for the example. I found it rather interesting.

[Duardo]

The way to change phase is with the phase reverse button on a plug-in (such as the one-band EQ).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, the "phase reverse" button is typically mislabeled as well...should be "polarity reverse"...

-Duardo

[Matt Zeiner]

Yes there is a relationship between phase and time, however time shifting alone cannot correct phase issues.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no contradiction here. This is absolutely CORRECT! Phase is measured in degrees (as Nick said) and obviously Time is measured in ms. As Nick said, you cannot correct phase errors by time shifting! Phase relationships basically deal with time only as it pertains to the relative period of a GIVEN harmonic component in a waveform. In other words, phase varies with frequency. Time does not. Cool? The time alignment of a set of tracks helps our brains decode stereo information, i.e. front/back versus side/side (panning). If you try to time align your tracks, you are essentially robbing them of the third dimension, so to speak.

[Haigbabe]

Originally posted by Duardo:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The way to change phase is with the phase reverse button on a plug-in (such as the one-band EQ).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, the "phase reverse" button is typically mislabeled as well...should be "polarity reverse"...

-Duardo <hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... and that button has shown to be slightly buggy too.

Best regards,

Haigbabe

[gh10606]

For those who say phase and timing are the same thing, try this simple experiment:

Copy a track and paste its contents onto an adjacent track; use the audiosuite 1-band EQ to reverse the phase (or "polarity") of one of the tracks; zoom in to the sample view and compare the two. They are different, and no amount of nudging will make them identical.

A simple way to understand the real-world effect of phase (or polarity) is to think of a speaker. If a pair of monitors are wired with opposite polarity, a mono signal center-panned will cause one cone to project out while the other "sucks" in. Again, a timing adjustment won't change this.

Take care,

Glenn

[where02190]

Originally posted by gh10606:
For those who say phase and timing are the same thing, try this simple experiment:

Copy a track and paste its contents onto an adjacent track; use the audiosuite 1-band EQ to reverse the phase (or "polarity") of one of the tracks; zoom in to the sample view and compare the two. They are different, and no amount of nudging will make them identical.

A simple way to understand the real-world effect of phase (or polarity) is to think of a speaker. If a pair of monitors are wired with opposite polarity, a mono signal center-panned will cause one cone to project out while the other "sucks" in. Again, a timing adjustment won't change this.

Take care,

Glenn

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guess that shut em up, well done Glenn.

[Richard Fairbanks]

Jeez, folks, please get your terms straight. That button you refer to is marked with a phase symbol, but actually it changes the POLARITY of a signal by making a negative voltage into a positive voltage of equal but opposite value and vice versa (i.e. for a baseline of zero volts, a signal swing of negative 1.23 volts is turned into a positive 1.23 volts when the polarity button is pushed). That is polarity. You are correct, it does nothing to the timing relationships. Your speaker example is an example of polarity change.

PHASE helps describe a time vs. frequency relationship between two signals. Put the same mono soundfile on two tracks and move one of the tracks relative to the other by any tiny amount you like, say one or two samples. Combine the two tracks through your mixer to one speaker. You will very likely notice a change in the sound, but that change probably will be perceptable only with higher frequencies. The lower frequencies, while time shifted the same amount, will be affected to such a small degree that they add together nearly perfectly and you will probably hear no quality difference whatsoever between a single track and the combination, except the combination may sound louder. The higher frequencies are affected more, so they do not all add together perfectly, thus there is a perceived change in quality.

Put two mics in front of a snare drum, start hitting the drum, and move one of the two microphones. The time it takes for the snare drum sound to get to the moving mic changes. The snare is picked up by both microphoes, and individually they might even sound identical. But combine them together in your mixer and your will hear phase problems, and this problem will be most apparent as the microphone continues to move. Different frequencies will be affected in different ways because the phase relationship at each frequency is different. What you are hearing is generally called comb filtering, which is the direct result of different amounts of phase change at different frequencies, caused by the moving microphone changing the time relationship of itself to the drum, relative to the other mic to the drum. Clear as mud.

Apples are not oranges and phase is not polarity. I left my watch at home.

[where02190]

the terms polarity and phase invert have been pretty synomimous in this industry for ever. 180 degree phase shift is a polarity invert. don't get your feathers in aruffle, this topis was trashed to death months ago.

Hope this is helpful.

[Richard Fairbanks]

Yes, people say one when they mean the other, which leads to a misunderstanding of what the differences are. There is rampant misunderstanding in this thread about what phase is, and what the difference is between phase and polarity, leading to misinformed statements, which perpetuates the problem even more. And THAT can cause people to try to solve their problems by applying ineffective techniques. Apparently the topic, perhaps beaten to death, has fallen on more deaf ears.

Can phasing problems be solved by nudging? Some of them, yes! If it sounds better after nudging than before, then you fixed it! Same goes for the polarity button (marked with a phase symbol), but polarity change and phase change via nudging (or any other time-shift method) are not the same thing at all.

I am "back quiet".