Is there any sound degradation when turning down a master fader?

[led5150]

Hey all. This is a question that I've asked many people but few have a super confident answer. Or any kind of answer that even they themselves truly believed in!

When you turn down a master fader in a mix in PT, is there any loss of fidelity? Any sort of sound degradation at all? Is it bad for the 1's and 0's?

Everyone I've ever asked says you should always leave the master at 0, and if you have to move it you will be shunned by engineers everywhere. I have practiced this method and gotten quite good at it, but I always wondered if these practices were based on analog mixing and not DAW mixing.

So if anyone has a definitive answer to this I'd love to hear it! And I might as well pose the same question in the analog world.

Thanks!

[SpinningDisk]

It's all digital right? I'm no tech guy but I don't think there would be any loss to sound except volume. Much smarter people on here than me. They will chime in.


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[Buel Pace]

Good question . . .

Seems to me a trust worthy answer might come from a reputable Mastering Engineer.

Like to know the answer myself.

[SpinningDisk]

+1^


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[bad jitter]

If you turn your master down all the way, sure there is degradation. This topic has been discussed here several times over the years, do the search. Shortly: turning master fader down has the same effect than turning individual channels down the same amount, it's just much easier.

[Carl Kolchak]

Depends on what you mean by "sound degradation".

If you turn down the master fader, you are reducing the dynamic range... so you might call that degradation.

Short answer to what I assume you mean by degradation : No.

You can test this by creating a 32bit floating point session, cranking up the master fader by 12dB (so that your audio distorts), and printing it to another audio track.

The new recording will be horribly distorted, but if you open the Audio Suite gain plug-in, reduce the gain by 12dB, and process the file, it will be restored to it's former glory.

You can test that by playing your original source audio file, and the newly processed file together, inverting the phase polarity of one against the other - they will cancel out.

[dr_daw]

Carl's got it. No real 'sound degradation', it's just something that will reduce the 'headroom'. IMHO there should be no need to reduce your master fader level unless you're doing it as a fade out. If you're master fader buss is clipping, you're mix is likely out of control, or you have an output on an insert up too high.

This is coming from my experience on analog desks as a young assistance. I once grabbed the master fader and pulled it down because I hit the red; the engineer slapped my hand and said "NO!"

But, it's your creative world...there are no rules, only guidelines.

[JFreak]

As long as the original 24 bit word (mix) is preserved, then no, there is no degradation. With a 64-bit mixer it means you can drag the master fader down awfully lot before that happens. So usually this is a non-issue.

What is an interesting debate, though, is how should one make a master fadeout. IS it better to just drag the master fader out, or does it sound better (IMO it does) to push a button on a Waves SSL comp? These are subtle differences, but audible nevertheless.

[JFreak]

There is a white paper available on 48bit mixer (TDM) but the principle should be the same on native.

[CME]

One thing to consider is where in the chain the master fader is. In pro tools it's pre insert. So that can create some issues when using it to fade out. Especially if you're running any kind of compression/limiting on the master fader.

There are some differences between TDM and native (and I assume HDx is like native). On a TDM system if you clip the master fader, the only way to truly fix it is to lower the track levels. On a native system you can bring down the master fader as need be. But keep in mind it's a pre-insert fader as noted before. And it's always best to keep from clipping anywhere in the chain. But if there's just one spot in a song pulling the master fader a little can be simpler.

And this is all to do with actual clipping. I believe moving the master fader will do little to hurt the resolution. Especially on small adjustments.