SHOULD THE MASTER FADER ALWAYS STAY AT UNITY GAIN?

[pk_hat]

If you're pulling down your faders to -10, you're lowering the bit resolution on every track.

I could be very wrong here, but it seems to me that bit resolution is captured at the recording stage. Once your signal has been recorded at a good level, lowering the fader shouldn't affect 'bit resolution', it only alters playback level.

Seems like you're better off leaving faders up and trimming on the master fader to keep from clipping.

Again, certainly possible, but usually not a prefered method in achieving great recordings. IMO, MF stays at unity, while addressing mix buss overload issues on the individual tracks. To me, it just seems the proper way to actually learn how to mix.

Doesn't the fact that the master fader is pre-inserts tell you that it's designed to be an output trim control? That was my impression. Are you suggesting you hear audible distortion if none of your tracks or busses are clipping and the master fader is pulled down?

My idea of the output trim control is the monitor volume knob located on my Digi002R. Again, master stays at Unity, work on the tracks that are causing problems, even if the output isn't hot, I don't care. A proper mastering engineer will know what to do.

[Anthemmusic]

If you're pulling down your faders to -10, you're lowering the bit resolution on every track. Seems like you're better off leaving faders up and trimming on the master fader to keep from clipping. Doesn't the fact that the master fader is pre-inserts tell you that it's designed to be an output trim control?

There was a very interesting article about all this in DigiZine called "Mixing In the Box." Check it out.

[bzldzl]

RinnyTin,

I'm relating to what you are saying, when I finish a mix the loudest part always comes to -.1 db, using the Q1 to find the highest peak and then lower the master fader. I've never heard distortion even when I have to pull the master fader down 8 or 9db.

If it's is good to keep the tracks faders at 0db or below why to they go up to +6db?

Good thread!

[mcconnellsteve]

i'm not a pro (if you've ready any of my posts, that's an obvious statement ) but some of the threads in the duc got me re-thinking mixing. i think i was trying to master while mixing (if that makes any sense) -- attempting to record every signal as hot as possible without clipping, getting a "loud" mix, etc. after reading a lot of the duc, i'm just thinking it makes more sense to record each track with some headroom, leave the master at unity and get a well-balanced mix that doesn't distort the master fader ever (even leaving some headroom at the master fader), presuming a mastering house can sweeten & heat things up. i'm enjoying the sound of my mixes 1000% more these days.

fwiw,
steve

[where02190]

There is no los in bit depth when lowering faders.
Running faders at 0 if nominal levels are in the -18dbfs range over many tracks can overload the mix buss, as the summation gain can exceed 0dbfs during peaks. It will become audible to a varying degree depending on the duration of overload.

Faders go to +6 for gain makeup of low level recrded inputs.

The master fader is not a trim tool.

[RinnyTin]

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/techtalk/

Take a look at this. The article is about TDM, but I assume the LE system works the same, with an internal resolution of 32 bit as opposed to 64 bit. Clearly states that lowering the faders lowers the resolution.

[CMG]

Straight from that article:

I am not attempting to talk you out of using a console for these qualities. I am instead showing that there is no data, or information, lost while mixing completely in Pro Tools, that no signal is lost when you pull a channel fader down below unity, and that there is no difference between setting all of the channel faders to -30 with the master at unity and setting the master to -30 with the channel faders at unity. As long as you're not clipping the output and are sending the highest possible output signal before clipping, then all is well.

[pk_hat]

Clearly states that lowering the faders lowers the resolution.

I must be going blind, or insane, or both.

[RinnyTin]

Right, which was what I was originally saying. But this also straight from the article:

Sixty-four non-coherent inputs summed at unity gain would yield 18 dB more output level. In order to not clip the 24-bit mix bus, you would have to pull each fader down by 18 dB to compensate. Since we already know that a 6.02 dB level increase or decrease equals one more or less bit respectively, we can see that the result of our gain change exercise leaves us with a whole bunch of 21-bit signals.

So doing it this way or leaving the faders at unity and trimming the master fader yield the same sum, right?

[michaux]

This is the info I am looking for:

Is there a diference between more or less gain from the track faders vs. the master fader? This is a good question for Digi. Can anyone respond????