How do I add bar/beat markers without affecting previous bar/beat grid?

[jbmoonchild]

I'm music editing for a television project and am working with gigantic AAF projects with tons of cues checkerboarded throughout. Obviously, every cue has a different tempo. I'm trying to go through the project and ensure the grid follows each cue so that I can more easily edit.

This means creating a bar/beat marker at the beginning of each cue and changing the project tempo for the length of the cue. Then when a new cue begins (almost never on the current grid), I'd like to use slip mode to create a fresh bar/beat marker at the transient of the cue's first "beat", and change the tempo accordingly. Again, my goal is just to align the bar/beat grid with each song, while leaving the timecode alone.

However, whenever I go to create a second bar/beat marker, it alters the grid for the entire project instead of just from that marker onward. I need the grid to be ignore the previous bar/beat grid and begin anew at that marker.

The only workaround I've found is to create a grid marker at the beginning and end of each cue to "lock" that cue's grid in, then create a new grid marker for the next cue. This is kind of a pain and seems like it should be unnecessary.

What's the secret here? Or is my workaround the secret?

[jbmoonchild]

Originally Posted by Robruce

Not sure if this addresses the issue.
Stay in slip, Set the playback head/cursor at the top of the program material.

Go: Event>Tempo Operations>Constant>

Set the initial tempo and add each new tempo change as needed. Add each Marker as you go

Always take note that the correct/desired values appear in both the 'start' and the 'end' data entry boxes.
Listen on and repeat where needed.

AFAIK Once you establish a grid/tempo using this method throughout, you cannot edit a tempo change at bar xxx without throwing off everything after bar xxx,

Unknown here there may be methods to overcome that, and also make tempo cues you create adhere to the ever-ongoing length and content changes typical during video editing hth

Hmm. That doesn't seem to do much of anything for me. Applying tempo operation > constant doesn't seem to affect the bar/beat grid at all.

[take77]

Check to see if the Conductor icon is on.

With the Conductor Track icon enabled you should be able to insert & maintain several tempos at any point.
You can also open the Tempo Operations Window by pressing Alt + 2 on number pad (Windows) or Opt + 2 (Mac).
The default is Constant. That works just fine for insertions.

Place the cursor, open the Tempo Operations Window & enter the tempo.
You'll also see the option to "Preserve tempo after selection" checkbox.
If selected, the previous tempo setting that was in effect at the selection end point is preserved after the selection. If unselected, the last tempo event created by the tempo operation continues to the end of the session, or until the next tempo event beyond the selected range.
That enables you to maintain a previous tempo after an insertion & any other set tempos that follow the insertion.

Otherwise, everything changes to the newly inserted tempo down the rest of the timeline.
But that only happens if you've made a selection. For example, selecting the a song section as a whole and then entering the new tempo.

You can also just place the cursor (without making any selection) & create the insert leaving the following tempos intact.

[Rich Breen]

Originally Posted by jbmoonchild

...whenever I go to create a second bar/beat marker, it alters the grid for the entire project instead of just from that marker onward. I need the grid to be ignore the previous bar/beat grid and begin anew at that marker.

The only workaround I've found is to create a grid marker at the beginning and end of each cue to "lock" that cue's grid in, then create a new grid marker for the next cue. This is kind of a pain and seems like it should be unnecessary....

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to do, but what you're describing is the only way it could possibly work: say you have a bar/beat/tempo marker at bar 1. Now if you go to bar 8 and add a bar/beat/tempo marker that's anything other than bar 8 it will of course have to change the preceding tempo.

Your solution of 'pinning' the last bar (or second to last bar) of the previous program is the only way you can enter new bar/beat/tempo info without changing the last previous tempo.

Again, if I'm misunderstanding please explain in more detail.

[jbmoonchild]

Originally Posted by take77

Check to see if the Conductor icon is on.

With the Conductor Track icon enabled you should be able to insert & maintain several tempos at any point.
You can also open the Tempo Operations Window by pressing Alt + 2 on number pad (Windows) or Opt + 2 (Mac).
The default is Constant. That works just fine for insertions.

Place the cursor, open the Tempo Operations Window & enter the tempo.
You'll also see the option to "Preserve tempo after selection" checkbox.
If selected, the previous tempo setting that was in effect at the selection end point is preserved after the selection. If unselected, the last tempo event created by the tempo operation continues to the end of the session, or until the next tempo event beyond the selected range.
That enables you to maintain a previous tempo after an insertion & any other set tempos that follow the insertion.

Otherwise, everything changes to the newly inserted tempo down the rest of the timeline.
But that only happens if you've made a selection. For example, selecting the a song section as a whole and then entering the new tempo.

You can also just place the cursor (without making any selection) & create the insert leaving the following tempos intact.

Perhaps I'm not adequately explaining myself. The tempo adjustment is easy enough - it's the bar/beat markers that won't move to the new selection.

In other words, when I place my cursor at a point that is off-grid (slip mode), I'd like to be able to move the grid to that cursor from that point forward - without affecting the bar/beat grid prior to that.

It really has very little to do with tempo.

Here is a screenshot of how I want the grid to look (I used my workaround here). The next cue's "bar 1, beat 1" is on a beat 1 of the grid.

https://imgur.com/a/pHfQ4j4

[jbmoonchild]

Originally Posted by Rich Breen

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to do, but what you're describing is the only way it could possibly work: say you have a bar/beat/tempo marker at bar 1. Now if you go to bar 8 and add a bar/beat/tempo marker that's anything other than bar 8 it will of course have to change the preceding tempo.

Your solution of 'pinning' the last bar (or second to last bar) of the previous program is the only way you can enter new bar/beat/tempo info without changing the last previous tempo.

Again, if I'm misunderstanding please explain in more detail.

You may be correct that Pro Tools just doesn't have this functionality.

It really has nothing to do with tempo. Every cue in the project could have an identical tempo and the problem would still exist. I'm trying to alter the grid throughout the project so that the downbeat of each cue lies on a grid marker. Obviously I don't want to move the cues themselves, so I need a way to move the grid lines.

The only way I can see to do this is to alter the tempo in between grid lines via my "workaround".

It's pretty simple and easy to do in Logic Pro, for example. You can kind of force the grid to "start from here" at any point in the timeline.

Here is a screenshot of how I want the grid to look (I used my workaround here). The 2nd cue's "bar 1, beat 1" is on a beat 1 of the grid.

https://imgur.com/a/pHfQ4j4

[Tweakhead]

you can cut, copy, and paste tempo events.

[jbmoonchild]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

you can cut, copy, and paste tempo events.

I'm not sure that helps with bar placement though. Again, I want bar 1 of all cues to lie on an even beat 1 of the grid.

[take77]

Originally Posted by jbmoonchild

However, whenever I go to create a second bar/beat marker, it alters the grid for the entire project instead of just from that marker onward. I need the grid to be ignore the previous bar/beat grid and begin anew at that marker.

Ah, I see. You explained yourself correctly when you said the grid was being altered. I've now discerned you're creating bar markers not inserting a new tempo. I automatically associated the two.

Hmmm, how to "re-draw" the grid section by section....

Beat detective can re-draw the grid according to the calculated tempo but you'd have to analyze each section one by one.
That would also alter the original timeline you were sent. Unless you made a duplicate and tried it on that.

An easier idea would make a copy of the original track(s) to be edited,
then copy each section to it's own playlist (making note of the tempo in the clip or playlist name).
Now you can edit each section one at a time in accord with the main timeline at the specified tempo.
After choosing the next playlist, simply change the main session tempo.

This would be easy to repeat as you move on to the next section to be edited.
I've been doing this when editing a slew of guitar files that are marked with various tempos.

When your done, you can consolidate the edits individually and give each clip an identifiable name.
Then drag & drop the newly edited files from the clip bin underneath the original copied track where it belongs.

You can line up each edited clip with the original at the exact start of each clip. First, select the clip on the original track. Then press the Start key (Windows) or Control key (Mac) when selecting the related clip on the track below. The clip below will automatically snap to the same start position as the one above it according to the original time code.

Just some ideas.
I'm sure someone on here can provide more expert advice on how to carry out the task more efficiently.
Or I'm completely missing the mark and not fully understanding the session objectives.

[jbmoonchild]

Originally Posted by take77

Ah, I see. You explained yourself correctly when you said the grid was being altered. I've now discerned you're creating bar markers not inserting a new tempo. I automatically associated the two.

Hmmm, how to "re-draw" the grid section by section....

Beat detective can re-draw the grid according to the calculated tempo but you'd have to analyze each section one by one.

Another idea would make a copy of the original track(s) to be edited,
then copy each section to it's own playlist (making note of the tempo on one of the clips or playlist name).
Now you can edit each section one at a time in accord with the main timeline at the specified tempo.
After choosing the next playlist, simply change the main session tempo.

This would be easy to repeat as you move on to the next section to be edited.
I've been doing this when editing a slew of guitar files that are marked with various tempos.

When your done, you can consolidate the edits and give each clip an identifiable name.
Then go back to the full extended playlist and drag & drop the newly edited files from the clip bin onto the original or right underneath on a new track.

You can line up each edited clip with the original at the exact start of each clip. First, select the clip on the original track. Then press the Start key (Windows) or Control key (Mac) when selecting the related clip on the track" below. The clip below will automatically snap to the same start position as the one above it.

Just some ideas.
I'm sure someone on here can provide more expert advice on how to carry out the task more efficiently.

That's actually not a terrible idea! Workflow-wise it's not something I would have immediately thought of but that does offer some interesting benefits. Thanks for the suggestion!