Lots Of Latency When Using Certain Plugins

[ConstantineStudios]

I have been a ProTools user since PT10 and recently I have been getting massive latency issues when trying to record.

The main plugins I am having an issue with are all of the waves CLA plugins (Drums, Vocals, Guitar, Bass...etc) whenever I have these plugins enabled and I am trying to record I get over 30ms of latency. This makes it very difficult when someone wants to come back and fix a part for a song after I have already started mixing. I have to manually go in and delete each plugin. Bypassing them still causes the latency issue. So i have to make a preset then delete the plugin and reload it after fixing the part. Its become very annoying.

I am using the new Audient EVO 16 with an XP8 expansion and a Focusrite Octopre for a total of 24 channels. I am running the latest version of ProTools Studio.

No matter what options I use Delay Compensation Enabled on its own, or Delay compensation with Low Latency Monitoring the latency still exists until I remove those plugins from the session.

Anyone have any idea why this would be happening?

Below is my Sandra Lite System Config

SiSoftware Sandra

ID
Host Name : i7-12700k
Workgroup : WORKGROUP

Computer
Model : ASUS System Product Name
Serial Number : System Ser**********
Chassis : OEM Desktop
Mainboard : ASUS ROG STRIX B760-A GAMING WIFI D4
Serial Number : 2211119********
BIOS : AMI (OEM) 0403 11/03/2022
Intel Management Engine (ME) : 16.1.25.1917
TPM - Trusted Platform Module : Intel ADL 2.0 2019 (24PCR 64Ses 7Obj 128Ctr)

System Memory
Total Memory : 64GB DIMM DDR4

Processors
Processor : 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-12700K (8C + 4c 20T 4.91GHz + 3.61GHz, 3.6GHz/4.6GHz IMC, 8x 1.25MB + 2MB L2, 25MB L3)
Socket/Slot : FC LGA1700

Chipset
Memory Controller : ASUS Core12S (Alder Lake-S841) Host Bridge/DRAM Registers 100MHz, 2x 32GB DIMM DDR4 2.67GHz 128-bit

Memory Module(s)
Memory Module : G Skill Intl/SK Hynix F4-3200C16-32GVK 32GB DIMM DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 XMP (19-19-19-44 4-63-21-3)
Memory Module : G Skill Intl/SK Hynix F4-3200C16-32GVK 32GB DIMM DDR4 2Rx8 PC4-25600U DDR4-3200 XMP (19-19-19-44 4-63-21-3)

Video System
Monitor/Panel : LG ULTRAGEAR
(2560x1440, 27.0")
Monitor/Panel : BNQ BenQ GL2760
(1920x1080, 27.2")
Monitor/Panel : BNQ BenQ GL2760
(1920x1080, 27.2")
Monitor/Panel : TCL
(1920x1080, 32.1")
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 24C SM5.2 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 7.9GB 19GHz 256-bit, PCIe 4.0 x16)
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 24C SM5.2 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 7.9GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit, PCIe 4.0 x16)
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 24C SM5.2 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 7.9GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit, PCIe 4.0 x16)
Video Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 24C SM5.2 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 7.9GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit, PCIe 4.0 x16)

Graphics Processor
CUDA : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 48C SM8.6 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
OpenCL : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 48C SM3.0 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
D3D 11 : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti (6144S 24C SM11.5 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 7.9GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (6144S 24C SM4.60 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (6144S 24C SM4.60 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (6144S 24C SM4.60 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)
OpenGL : NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Ti/PCIe/SSE2 (6144S 24C SM4.60 1.86GHz, 4MB L2, 8GB 18.5GHz/19GHz 256-bit)

Storage Devices
Disk : Samsung SSD 860 EVO 500GB (500.1GB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Disk : Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB (1TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Disk : TOSHIBA HDWE150 (5TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Disk : Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB (500.1GB, PCIe3x4/NVMe, SED)
Disk : WDC WD20EZBX-00AYRA0 (2TB, USB3/SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)

Logical Storage Devices
500 Game (F:) : 466GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 860 EVO 500GB (500.1GB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
1TB Game (E:) : 931GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 860 EVO 1TB (1TB, SATA600, 2.5", SSD, SED)
Programs-4TB (D:) : 5TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ TOSHIBA HDWE150 (5TB, SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
System Reserved : 579MB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB (500.1GB, PCIe3x4/NVMe, SED)
WD 2TB Backup (G:) : 2TB (NTFS, 4kB) @ WDC WD20EZBX-00AYRA0 (2TB, USB3/SATA600, 3.5", 7200rpm)
Hard Disk (C:) : 465GB (NTFS, 4kB) @ Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB (500.1GB, PCIe3x4/NVMe, SED)

Storage System
Storage Pool : Primordial (8.19TB)

Peripherals
LPC Hub Controller : ASUS PCI standard ISA bridge
Audio Device : EVGA GA104 High Definition Audio Controller
Audio Codec : nVidia G70GL
Disk Controller : ASUS Volume Management Device NVMe RAID Controller
Disk Controller : ASUS PCI standard RAM Controller
Disk Controller : ASUS Standard SATA AHCI Controller
Disk Controller : Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 1TB
USB Controller : ASUS Intel(R) USB 3.20 eXtensible Host Controller - 1.20 (Microsoft)
USB Controller : Renesas Tech uPD720201 USB 3.0 Host Controller
SMBus/i2c Controller : Intel ICH SMBus

Printers and Faxes
Printer : Microsoft Software Printer Driver (300x300, Colour)
Printer : Microsoft XPS Document Writer v4 (600x600, Colour)
Printer : Microsoft Print To PDF (600x600, Colour)
Fax : Microsoft Shared Fax Driver (200x200)
Printer : Canon TS3500 series (USB, Colour)

Biometrics
Voice : Analog NUI Voice Virtual Sensor (Voice)

Peripherals
Media Player : Sabrent SATA Bridge (1.82TB)

Network Services
Network Adapter : Intel(R) Ethernet Controller I226-V (Ethernet, 1Gbps)
Network Adapter : Bluetooth Device (Personal Area Network) #2 (Ethernet)
Wireless Adapter : Intel(R) Wi-Fi 6E AX211 160MHz (Wifi3 (802.11g/ERP), 36Mbps)

Operating System
Windows System : Microsoft Windows 10 Professional 10.0.19045
Platform Compliance : x64

[Tweakhead]

you can de-activate plugins instead of removing them. this is different than a simple bypass.
on a mac, it's Ctrl+Command+Click.
re-activate with the same action once you're done with your overdub, and you are back to where you were.

[ConstantineStudios]

Originally Posted by Tweakhead

you can de-activate plugins instead of removing them. this is different than a simple bypass.
on a mac, it's Ctrl+Command+Click.
re-activate with the same action once you're done with your overdub, and you are back to where you were.

Either way its still a major inconvenience. Does nobody else have this issue, or any kind of Fix? This just shouldnt be happening with a system like mine.

[Darryl Ramm]

Hi Welcome to DUC

Originally Posted by ConstantineStudios

I have been a ProTools user since PT10 and recently I have been getting massive latency issues when trying to record.

Uncheck LLM and leave it off. Enable ADC and leave it enabled. Uncheck ignore errors and leave it off (should never be enabled, and it can introduce latency bugs).

To be clear are you talking about monitoring latency? or when playing back things are delayed/not aligned correctly?

When did this start happening? What changed?

Does this happen for all sessions? Only one session? Only related sessions?

What is the HW buffer size? What happens when you make that as small as Pro Tools will handle?

Are you using sends in the session? Are there sends in the signal flow having problems?

Are you using hardware inserts?

The main plugins I am having an issue with are all of the waves CLA plugins (Drums, Vocals, Guitar, Bass...etc) whenever I have these plugins enabled and I am trying to record I get over 30ms of latency.

Latency of waves plugins is here: https://www.waves.com/support/tech-specs/plugin-latency

What *exact* latency do you get in samples, and at what session sample rate? Often the exact latency in samples give a clue to the cause. You should be able to measure to +/- few sample by using a click. How does this compare to the ADC latency shown for the track the plugin is on? And Waves speced plugin latency? And the H/W buffer size? The disk playback buffer size (fixed multiple of 1024 or 2048 samples depending on sample rate). Give numbers (in samples)

This makes it very difficult when someone wants to come back and fix a part for a song after I have already started mixing. I have to manually go in and delete each plugin. Bypassing them still causes the latency issue. So i have to make a preset then delete the plugin and reload it after fixing the part. Its become very annoying.

Bypassing a plugin has never changed the latency, that's a deliberate and needed design. You have to make a plugin inactive to remove it's latency.

No matter what options I use Delay Compensation Enabled on its own, or Delay compensation with Low Latency Monitoring the latency still exists until I remove those plugins from the session.

What are you expecting these to do?

Low latency monitoring only mutes the output of record-enabled tracks so you can monitor in hardware.

ADC is "suspended" on record-enabled tracks during recording to reduce possible monitoring latency on that input.

Again are you talking monitoring latency or latency/wrong offset seen when laying back?

----

If this is only one session and does not happen elsewhere you might end up trying save copy in or trying importing to a new session.

Can you reproduce this by creating a new very simple session maybe two tracks?

Otherwise take the session you have now, make a save copy in, and and start stripping down the copy and removing things so you maybe can end up with something as simple as possible but with he same signal flow through a tracks that has a problems as you have now. Then try simplifying the signal flow though those tracks, say removing sends, etc. extra busing. Ideally somethign super simpel to describe, or that you can share.

[Darryl Ramm]

What happens when you swap one of these misbehaving plugins say for Avid EQ-3?

[Tweakhead]

Originally Posted by ConstantineStudios

Either way its still a major inconvenience. Does nobody else have this issue, or any kind of Fix? This just shouldnt be happening with a system like mine.

You originally wrote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineStudios

I have to manually go in and delete each plugin. Bypassing them still causes the latency issue. So i have to make a preset then delete the plugin and reload it after fixing the part. Its become very annoying.

I explained how to avoid your self-annoying process of deleting then reloading the plugin by using plugin deactivation instead.
You could even deactivate them all in one shot by following this Sweetwater tutorial for opening a session with all plugins disabled.
If you don't want to stop annoying yourself, that's your choice I guess.

There is no workaround to using high-latency plugins, other than perhaps getting an Avid Carbon system with the hybrid engine and onboard DSP plugins, and using only those plugins on your projects. I've never tried it personally, but that's what they claim. Read the info in the link.

That's why it's important to do prior research on the best hardware system for your workflow, instead of expecting a third-party interface to do everything you want simply because you bought it.

[its2loud]

⬆️⬆️⬆️ this…

Since the beginning of time, plugins have caused latency in DAWs. This is why DSP processing was invented.

If you’re using a third party interface with Pro Tools without DSP and you’re trying to record through plugins, you will always have latency. This has been a known fact for a very long time.

[Darryl Ramm]

Things here clearly don't make sense.

"about 30ms" @ 44.1 kHz = 1767 not close to these individual plugins latency. But if the H/W buffer is just set too high, and if we are actually talking about monitoring latency then maybe it's a H/W buffer set to say 1024 samples being seen. But then removing one of these plugins would not make this go away.

Latency samples @ 44.1k
CLA Drums - 65
CLA Vocals - 193
CLA Guitar - 100
CLA Bass. - 133

Maybe there are multiple chained plugins and they were all removed to get removed to address this problem? Or maybe it's a corrupted session, or complex routing that is causing issues, or maybe there are high latency plugins elsewhere running ADC out of capacity (but that's not going to screw monitoring latency). Or something related to several known bugs, or... and we have lots of info, but not the most relevant stuff, which is why I asked so many questions earlier.

[JFreak]

By definition, all digital systems introduce at least 1 sample of latency in the digital domain. That is kind of laws of physics, cannot be avoided.

To my knowledge there has not been a 1-sample latency on any plugin. Fastest have been some TDM (DSP) plugins having 2-sample latency.

Some modern plugins use processing which require much much more than DSP systems, just because it is possible. Add to that AD/DA latency and you get the (almost) complete picture.

What ultimately matters is from mic via processing to cans needs to be fast enough. Faster is not better, but one millisecond too slow and it is impossible to perform.

[take77]

The guys have explained things well so just consider this as a morale booster:

In the world of music production (digital or analog) producers & engineers become familiar with how things behave and have to deal with different circumstances.
Sometimes even the professionals have to do whatever is necessary to make a track happen despite an inconvenient circumstance.

Hopefully, the new part is worth the effort.
If it really does make the song better, do whatever you guys need to do to achieve the desired result.
Even if it requires a little back & forth.

There are name producers & engineers who have jumped through much smaller hoops to achieve some classic tracks.
And they have some stories about how they got there.
So if you have to put some extra effort into temporarily configuring things so there is no latency, consider it par for the course.

Think ahead to the time when you guys are listening back to a killer track; saying to yourselves: Yeah, we really worked for that track...
"Remember how I had to deactivate those plug-ins?... Man that was a pain..."

The moral of the story is: Don't allow inconvenience (or convenience) to take away from the soul & tenacity that goes into working extra for a track.

So the next time someone wants to change the song whilst mixing, look at them and say: This better be good...