Advice on workflow and sync - film to PAL.

[popcornmama]

I would appreciate any comments and advice from those more experienced in these matters; in terms of the workflow of a film I am editing sound for (before it all goes haywire!):

- Film shot on 16mm (24fps) with unuseable production sound, telecined to Beta (PAL) and is being cut on the Avid.
- I am asking for a digital cut from the Avid on BetaSP (and subsequent Quicktime) running timecode of 25fps with a burn in of both timecode and Feet and frames rate; as well as pips at 6 secs after hour start and 2 secs after LFOA.
-I am hoping to run my PT project as timecode rate of 25fps with F+F rate of 24fps.
-I will work to imported guidetracks from the beta, and run the QT video.

Will this all work (in theory)?

We are doing practically 100% ADR, so if the facility (foley being done here as well) run their PT sessions the same as mine, referencing the Beta as picture and guide........will it all sync?

In terms of the final mix - Should we run the Beta, or mix to the projected film?
What consideration are needed here? (The film is intended to be submitted on Beta, with a view to providing a final film version at a later date).

I appreciate any thoughts.. as well as any pointers as to the best references for really getting my head around NTSC, PAL, film speed, timecode, frame rates etc etc. There is a lot of conflicting information on the WWW!
Thanks

[Frank Kruse]

Film in the PAL-world is totally straight-forward.
You have to ask for a film-rate-playout (not video-rate wich is the other option but will run 1 frame too fast) from the AVID wich will run in sync with the production sound. No pull-ups or downs in PAL.
Open you OMF and you are ready to go.

The film-rate playout will contain 2 duplicate video-fields per second to conpensate for the speed difference between the PAL tape and the frame-rate of your celluloid.

Feet-and-frames help but are not really necessary. Make sure you keep the KeyCode visible when you digitize the Beta-Tape to double-check if errors ossur.

The other option is to export 24fps QT-movies and work with real 24fps all the way. If you use a QT-card like the miro or the fuse-x it will do the field doubling automatically on-the-fly and you will see 24fps-speed on a PAL-video-screen.

Frank.

[edboy7]

I would appreciate any comments and advice from those more experienced in these matters; in t
-I am hoping to run my PT project as timecode rate of 25fps with F+F rate of 24fps.
-I will work to imported guidetracks from the beta, and run the QT video.

Will this all work (in theory)?


Thanks

That should work but y ask for a betasp copy while you already have a quicktime?(im assuming that the QT file would come from the Avid) I suggest if you can ask an Omf just to check to framrate setting because it will create a Pt session with corresponding default settings from the avid... HTH

[Branko]

I'd like to add one more thing: be sure that the project in AVID is cut at 24 fps - film project. A lot of cheaper systems don't have the 24 fps option. Telecine in PAL world is done by speeding up the film in transfer (because PAL video runs at 25 fps), so AVID will have to slow it down by doing what Frank has already described.
Branko

[popcornmama]

Thanks Guys,
I need to revisit this however. I cannot get my head around one thing, and I am working with an inexperienced pic editor, so need to stay on top of it.
We shot picture at 24 fps. This is telecined to PAL and then converted back to 24fps in the AVID Film project. Pic Editor runs out a beta by adding a drop frame very 12 frames.
So now we are in PAL.

What I don't understand is: if I cut to this 25fps TC, how do we get back in sync with his 24? Once the extra frame gets dropped every second, am I still in sync?

Also - I have a bad feeling that he may have run out a Beta tape from the Avid by the other method - speeding up the picture 4%. If so, does that mean that to get back to 24fps, my audio will get slowed down?
We have NO production sound,so no OMF, and no pip at the end of reels (doh), so I have nothing to check with.
Hey it's sounding pretty good though!

[Branko]

Popwatson,

We shot picture at 24 fps. This is telecined to PAL and then converted back to 24fps in the AVID Film project. Pic Editor runs out a beta by adding a drop frame very 12 frames.
So now we are in PAL.

Yes you're in PAL and your picture is running at true speed of 24 FPS. This means that one second of real-time shot on film equals one second of playback time. The picture freezes ab it every 12 frames, because a field (not frame) is added in playback to provide the speed change. This way, during playback, your 24 original frames from film are spread across 25 video frames, a speed that PAL systems run at.
The actual timecode rate (24 or 25) DOES NOT affect the sound playback speed in ProTools - it will always be 48000 samples per second, unless pulled up/down. Consequently, you don´t have to go back to 24 FPS, you´re already running at that speed.
If your picture editor played his Digital cut tapes at 25 FPS (an option on AVID systems), just return these tapes and ask for new ones, this time at 24 FPS. Nothing to do here.
If you really want to check it against audio, your Picture Editor could create one audio track containing only front and end pops, so you can check the sync. Pop marks should exist on every picture that comes to sound department from picture editing room.
Branko

[popcornmama]

Thanks Branko
It's now all making sense. I have confirmed that the pic editor played out at 25 and not film speed, so he is running out new tapes for me, and putting front and back pips on this time.
Now.. about 29.97df........... only joking

[Frank Kruse]

Thanks Branko
It's now all making sense. I have confirmed that the pic editor played out at 25 and not film speed, so he is running out new tapes for me, and putting front and back pips on this time.
Now.. about 29.97df........... only joking

One more detail: When you open an OMF from a 24fps PAL project the resulting session will be set to 24fps because the TC-rate inside the OMF is 24fps. You just need to set the PT-ruler to 25fps to count the same frames as your beta-tape since the tc-rate in PT has nothing to do with audio-speed.

This doesn´t happen if you import the tracks from the OMF into a 25fps session. It only happens when you open the OMF with a double-click and same the session.

frank.

[Jon Olive]

Hi Poppy

This is all spot on advice - but if you still need help give me a call.

Jon

[Bokir]

All,

While in this topic I also have an unsolvable question:

- What if we (sound guy) are the one doing the dailies synchronisation from 24 film -- telecine at 25? Should we pull up the sound?

Thanks.