5.1 mix dynamics and broadcast compressors

[Rizz]

I recently got HDTV at home and heard a 5.1 mix I did on a drama. I was disappointed by how compressed it sounded. There was an AGC with a slow release bringing up the bg's a ton in-between dial. There was another drama on after my show and it sounded the same. The network is a small Canadian network. I had no specific tech specs for levels, (only Dolby E layout etc) so I mixed it according to the spec I've had from a number of other networks (CBC, National Geographic). For a 5.1 mix (peak levels must not rise above -3 dBfs, and a dialnorm of -27). I came across a link to a podcast on the CAS website entitled "WHAT HAPPENED TO MY MIX". It was great. I'm considering contacting technical operations to see what they're doing and to find a way to make my mix better survive the broadcast chain. I left my 5.1 mix fairly dynamic because it's a drama. My question is this. What do other mixers do other than peak limiting as far as dynamics on your mix bus? Also do you do things differently for a drama as opposed to a documentary etc? What about the LtRt for the SD broadcast? Thanks in advance for any input.

[VRS]

Originally Posted by Rizz

I recently got HDTV at home and heard a 5.1 mix I did on a drama. I was disappointed by how compressed it sounded. There was an AGC with a slow release bringing up the bg's a ton in-between dial. There was another drama on after my show and it sounded the same. The network is a small Canadian network. I had no specific tech specs for levels, (only Dolby E layout etc) so I mixed it according to the spec I've had from a number of other networks (CBC, National Geographic). For a 5.1 mix (peak levels must not rise above -3 dBfs, and a dialnorm of -27). I came across a link to a podcast on the CAS website entitled "WHAT HAPPENED TO MY MIX". It was great. I'm considering contacting technical operations to see what they're doing and to find a way to make my mix better survive the broadcast chain. I left my 5.1 mix fairly dynamic because it's a drama. My question is this. What do other mixers do other than peak limiting as far as dynamics on your mix bus? Also do you do things differently for a drama as opposed to a documentary etc? What about the LtRt for the SD broadcast? Thanks in advance for any input.

Sad isn't it?

The first drama I mixed was in 1989 for a CBC broadcast and we were 3 weeks from dub to broadcast and I was making the master 1 inch mono layback for CBC because they couldn't sum a stereo 1 inch video master to mono (they would air one side!!).
The broadcast was terrible. After listening to how they screwed it up, we contacted the CBC tech people to see what they were doing. The answer was nothing, it must be something on the west coast because "it was fine in Toronto". So we had someone tape the show in Toronto and it was the same. So, no answer from them but since I was making the broadcast master, I was able to make adjustments so that their crappy AGC didn't hit so much and EQ the master to compensate for their bad chain.
Jump ahead 21 years and we now have shows that rarely play in sync and a digital broadcast that gets compressed by the stations because they can decode the Dolby 'E' before the final air and put whatever they want on it. (And I don't know what CTV was doing in 5.1 for the Olympics but it just sounded wrong.)

Having said that, we only usually compress the LtRt on the delivery master - and we compress the stems *before* the Dolby encoding. We have limiters on the 5.1 mix stems as we're going to keep us in spec and then we can hear what's going on with them as we mix. I like to hope that someone, somewhere will actually hear the mix in 5.1 as we intended so we do not add any compression/limiting after our final approval from the client.

I find it interesting you got specs that say peaks at -3dbFS. Most of the specs say -6dbFS (+14db) or even -8dbFS (+12db). We have had QC reports that reject the mix because of a peak that is at +13dbFS. That's still 7dB below max where I come from!!

The only real difference between a 'drama' and a 'doc' is that we mix the docs lower - I've been mixing the docs at 76dB SPL recently and it seems to translate better than 79dB SPL where I would normally mix the TV shows. My reasoning is that people are not listening to docs as loud as dramas so that will force you to bring up the background sounds as you mix. We did this History channel series last year and we compressed the LtRt quite heavily because the client complained the mix wasn't 'loud' enough, but we left the 5.1 mix relatively open and it sounded much better than the 'louder' mix. I don't think the client even heard the 5.1 mix as they really only cared about the 'stereo mix'.

The only thing I can say about broadcast is 'roll the dice'. Even though I do think it is generally better after 20 years.

BTW, is this Howie I'm talking to? You were one of my engineering instructors at ICA in 1983.

Vince

[Rizz]

Hi Vince, yah it's me. Hope all is well on the left coast. All this is just so frustrating. It's unfortunate but the only way to hear a mix the way we mix it seems to be off a DVD. Thanks for the input, stay thirsty my friend.

[VRS]

Originally Posted by Rizz

Hi Vince, yah it's me. Hope all is well on the left coast. All this is just so frustrating. It's unfortunate but the only way to hear a mix the way we mix it seems to be off a DVD. Thanks for the input, stay thirsty my friend.

Devil's advocate: Yes, then you're left to make sure they didn't screw up the mastering on the DVD. And the theatre? Forget it. Since the projectionists union lost their fight a few years ago the maintenance in those rooms is pathetic. I've gotten my money back more times than I can count.

We just went to a screening of a film that I mixed the score on. Mid way through the main titles the left speaker disappeared. The score was mixed in 5.1 but the main title song was mixed in stereo so everything moved to the right. Then when the movie started up again, the score wasn't so bad because there was centre channel info but the left speaker still was gone - I'm pretty sure it had crashed to the optical tracks as well because it didn't sound like Dolby Digital. Then the end title song came up - mixed in stereo and Right only. My wife said, 'well that wasn't a bad film'. 'Except for the left channel missing' I said. 'Oh, I didn't notice.' I'm sure 90% of the theatre didn't notice either. The local Dolby guy was sitting behind me cringing.

The client on the History channel show we mixed last year complained to my partner one week that the broadcast was out of sync for that episode. His answer? 'Yah. Hey we're surprised when it *is* in sync these days"

Digital has made everything so much easier and better don't you think?
I used to think I should make everything sound as good for broadcast as I can. Now I think I should just make it sound as good as I can in the mix room - with the client there - because that's what's going to get me my next gig.

Cheers Howie.

Vince

[EarHole]

Originally Posted by VRS

Digital has made everything so much easier and better don't you think?
I used to think I should make everything sound as good for broadcast as I can. Now I think I should just make it sound as good as I can in the mix room - with the client there - because that's what's going to get me my next gig.

Cheers Howie.

Vince

No kidding..... I had a client call and complain because after we mixed a spot he went back to the edit facility and the editor compared it to his mix. I told the client that yes, the editors mix probably was louder since the OMF he sent was pretty much clipping in the red the whole time... but that in the broadcast world... it won't work. Despite my protests, they requested that I remove all compression and limiters that kept the mix in spec and run it all the way to zero. I did it and it broke my heart. I had done so much sound design and mix work on this spot and on the air it was a giant ball of mud.

But, they loved it.... so now every time they come in I let 'em have it that way.