AAX isn't automagically DSP?

[Bill Denton]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

You might want to get your facts straight before accusing someone of BSing

"Powered" VST plug-ins are simply shells that address whatever is running on the respective DSP card wether SSL, UAD or whatever. A UAD card can't run a VST plug in programmed for Intel chips. In the same way, the UAD cards can't run AU plug-in code. In other words there's no such thing as a "powered" VST plug-in. The VST/AU plug-in is a "middleman" in effect. It's a means of routing between your DAW and the proprietory code running on the DSP card as well as being a "host" for the plug-in's GUI.

The VST/AU plug-in itself is NOT running on the UAD card. UAD could write their plug-ins in VST/AU/RTAS format but they've chosen not to. They'd rather have their own proprietary format which is effectively a hardware dongle.

There's a big difference between this way of working and AAX and AAX DSP.

+1

Glad you jumped in to answer the true BS...

Saved me a lot of typing...I get more coffee this AM...

[hue]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

You might want to get your facts straight before accusing someone of BSing

"Powered" VST plug-ins are simply shells that address whatever is running on the respective DSP card wether SSL, UAD or whatever. A UAD card can't run a VST plug in programmed for Intel chips. In the same way, the UAD cards can't run AU plug-in code. In other words there's no such thing as a "powered" VST plug-in. The VST/AU plug-in is a "middleman" in effect. It's a means of routing between your DAW and the proprietory code running on the DSP card as well as being a "host" for the plug-in's GUI.

The VST/AU plug-in itself is NOT running on the UAD card. UAD could write their plug-ins in VST/AU/RTAS format but they've chosen not to. They'd rather have their own proprietary format which is effectively a hardware dongle.

There's a big difference between this way of working and AAX and AAX DSP.

Well, it works. To say that the hardware is just a dongle. Well, that IS bs. And hey, AAX is proprietary also. Why force the end user to have to deal with upgrading all of their plugs? Let the software developer deal with their plugins. They're already having to develop several versions of their software and they already have to develop VST plugins for the other DAWs, so eliminate one step. Support VST and let them develop their AAX version for the cards.

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by hue

Well, it works. To say that the hardware is just a dongle. Well, that IS bs. And hey, AAX is proprietary also. Why force the end user to have to deal with upgrading all of their plugs? Let the software developer deal with their plugins. They're already having to develop several versions of their software and they already have to develop VST plugins for the other DAWs, so eliminate one step. Support VST and let them develop their AAX version for the cards.

If you'd read, (and understood) my post you would have noticed I didn't say that the UAD card is "just" a dongle, I said it is "effectively" a dongle. Regardless of wether it works, your assertion that Dave Tremblay was talking BS when he said that...

VST doesn't have the ability to build the processing part of the algorithm to live on embedded DSPs.

... was not only plain wrong as I've already pointed out but also pretty obnoxious.

[Dism]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

If you'd read, (and understood) my post you would have noticed I didn't say that the UAD card is "just" a dongle, I said it is "effectively" a dongle. Regardless of wether it works, your assertion that Dave Tremblay was talking BS when he said that...

... was not only plain wrong as I've already pointed out but also pretty obnoxious.

Also... I'm having trouble thinking of a major DAW or plugin that doesn't have some way of keeping the user teathered. Logic is Mac proprietary, Cubendo has their own hardware dongle (also... VST to VST3 upgrades anyone? ), Reason JUST finally started using their own proprietary plugin format (not to mention their hardware dongle), Waves has WUP, UAD is a wholely proprietary system... You're just picking your poison in this game. To say that AAX is any more proprietary than any other major system in this industry is ridiculous.

[DaveTremblay]

Originally Posted by hue

Can I call BS on this? Well, it doesn't matter because I'm going to. How about UAD and SSL and TC Powercore and Focusrite Liquidmix? All DSP powered VST plugins. We are not ignorant and I find it offensive that anyone would assume that we are oblivious of the technology that's out there. I own and have owned two of these platforms and they both work perfectly fine in RTAS and VST. To be totally honest, they worked much better in VST mode, were far less power hungry and far less buggy.

I can see how that looks, but it is definitely not the same thing. These systems use an Adapter VST plug-in to buffer up a bunch of audio, move it over to a DSP card where it is processed, receive it back and write it to the output. And in the process they incur a large amount of latency, much more than just the hardware buffer size. It is possible that they could do this within a single buffer and not incur the latency penalty, but at the cost of increasing audio dropouts. (And even then, the latency is at least 8x higher than HDX and more likely 32x higher or more)

In these cases the code that is processing the sound has nothing to do with VST or AudioUnits. It is custom processing code that is written for that DSP device. The VST Adapter is only doing the conversion and communication to the card. We could have done the same thing, but there isn't much point to it. With AAX you get very low latency (4 samples), very high determinism, and offloading of the CPU. With the VST Adapter to a UAD card or similar system, you are only getting that last thing. And at potential cost to the other two.

The bottom line is that these systems are NOT loading a VST plug-in onto a DSP. They are using a VST plug-in to communicate with their proprietary audio processing devices.

Dave

[DaveTremblay]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

You might want to get your facts straight before accusing someone of BSing

"Powered" VST plug-ins are simply shells that address whatever is running on the respective DSP card wether SSL, UAD or whatever. A UAD card can't run a VST plug in programmed for Intel chips. In the same way, the UAD cards can't run AU plug-in code. In other words there's no such thing as a "powered" VST plug-in. The VST/AU plug-in is a "middleman" in effect. It's a means of routing between your DAW and the proprietory code running on the DSP card as well as being a "host" for the plug-in's GUI.

The VST/AU plug-in itself is NOT running on the UAD card. UAD could write their plug-ins in VST/AU/RTAS format but they've chosen not to. They'd rather have their own proprietary format which is effectively a hardware dongle.

There's a big difference between this way of working and AAX and AAX DSP.

I guess I should have read all the way through the thread before responding myself. :) Thank you for jumping in to clarify.

Dave

[John_Toolbox]

Originally Posted by Marsdy

You might want to get your facts straight before accusing someone of BSing

"Powered" VST plug-ins are simply shells that address whatever is running on the respective DSP card wether SSL, UAD or whatever. A UAD card can't run a VST plug in programmed for Intel chips. In the same way, the UAD cards can't run AU plug-in code. In other words there's no such thing as a "powered" VST plug-in. The VST/AU plug-in is a "middleman" in effect. It's a means of routing between your DAW and the proprietory code running on the DSP card as well as being a "host" for the plug-in's GUI.

The VST/AU plug-in itself is NOT running on the UAD card. UAD could write their plug-ins in VST/AU/RTAS format but they've chosen not to. They'd rather have their own proprietary format which is effectively a hardware dongle.

There's a big difference between this way of working and AAX and AAX DSP.

+1. A really easy way to confirm this is the fact that all of these "DSP" VST plugins like the TC powercore/fabrik plugins, UAD, etc. can not run as a native VST plugin. The only way to use them is with the dedicated DSP box associated with them.

[Marsdy]

Originally Posted by DaveTremblay

I guess I should have read all the way through the thread before responding myself. :) Thank you for jumping in to clarify.

Dave

Well your explanation was a lot better than mine!

[hue]

Alright. I can eat that hat.

I still think VST support could simplify things. I never said there wasn't change in the VST camp. The fact that they are now on version 3 simply means they're adapting. I suppose the same could be said for AAX. But, by simply adopting VST there would be two benefits. 1: You would all of a sudden include a lot of potential new users. 2: developers would only have to port their plugins for one new format.

As far as importing sessions from DSP to non DSP, I'm sure that you could code in an option to search for Native equivalents in VST upon import.

[Dism]

Originally Posted by hue

Alright. I can eat that hat.

I still think VST support could simplify things. I never said there wasn't change in the VST camp. The fact that they are now on version 3 simply means they're adapting. I suppose the same could be said for AAX. But, by simply adopting VST there would be two benefits. 1: You would all of a sudden include a lot of potential new users. 2: developers would only have to port their plugins for one new format.

As far as importing sessions from DSP to non DSP, I'm sure that you could code in an option to search for Native equivalents in VST upon import.

VST support is the one thing that has been talked about for many years that is just never going to happen.

It's the same reason why Cubase will only ever use VST, Logic will only ever support AU, and why Reason will only use "Rack extensions."

The argument over efficiency and compatibility has been made 1000 times over, and it will never have any weight. If you use Pro Tools, you deal with its own plugin format. That's the way it always has, and will be. If Pro Tools does ever get sold off, it might be a different story, but for now... it is what it is.