Markers not shifting correctly to stay aligned with Bars/Beats

[boxofgeese]

Hey folks. You guys were all really kind in assisting me with another issue recently. Thanks. It wasn't solved (I've reached the conclusion it's yet another PT11 bug) but you guys helped me quickly.

Here's one more (hopefully small) issue.

Setting up session templates with markers for song sections. Every song has a click and has markers precisely laid out. Songs are complex with multiple time and (some) tempo changes. I needed to go back in and change the time signature for an 8-bar section, but when I do, all the markers after that section stay exactly where they were, as if they were absolute. However, I set all of them to bar/beat. Also, main counter is on bars/beats.

Here's a screenshot of the section before I attempted any change:
http://richbozek.com/temp_click/pt1.png
You can see the time is currently in 6/4, but I need to change Section A to 5/4.

Here's what happened after:
http://richbozek.com/temp_click/pt2.png
Marker B should have shifted over so it still sits at the beginning of Bar 68, but it stayed exactly where it was.

(And just to show I DO have them set on bars/beats:)
http://richbozek.com/temp_click/pt3.png


I'm hoping that I'm just overlooking one dumb thing. Thanks in advance.

[Drew Mazurek]

Markers can be Absolute, or Bars and Beats.

Absolute, stay put during tempo changes, bars and beats follow.

When you create a marker, there's a pulldown menu and you can choose.

[huzzam]

Well, it looks like PT is acting correctly to me. 8 bars of 6 beats = 48 beats. 9.6 bars of 5 beats = 48 beats. Changing the time signature doesn't remove time from the timeline, it just reconsiders how it's marked off. I.e. it doesn't chop off the last beat of each bar (thankfully) when you change from 6/4 to 5/4. It just moves the barlines.

If you want the time removed from the timeline, you have to do that separately. In case you don't know, you can do that like this:

1. go into shuffle-grid mode (click "grid;" hold down shift and click "shuffle")
2. select the "ALL" group in the track group list (not necessary if you haven't actually recorded anything yet)
3. within a track, drag-select the time you want to delete (i.e. beginning of bar 68 till midway through bar 69, at the B marker)
4. shift-click the markers bar so it gets selected too
5. hit the delete key
6. unselect the ALL group and GET OUT OF SHUFFLE MODE (just click "grid" again) unless you want to make a terrible, terrible mistake on the next edit you make...

Your markers after the edit should all move over so that "B" is right on bar 68.

~peter in istanbul

[boxofgeese]

Originally Posted by Drew Mazurek

Markers can be Absolute, or Bars and Beats.

That's correct. I had them all set on Bars & Beats.

[boxofgeese]

Originally Posted by huzzam

Well, it looks like PT is acting correctly to me. 8 bars of 6 beats = 48 beats. 9.6 bars of 5 beats = 48 beats. Changing the time signature doesn't remove time from the timeline, it just reconsiders how it's marked off. I.e. it doesn't chop off the last beat of each bar (thankfully) when you change from 6/4 to 5/4. It just moves the barlines.

Thank you very much for your reply. You're absolutely right, and that's a great workaround. That's what I did to solve the problem in the short term.

However, shouldn't the markers have still moved correctly in the first place? If their reference point is tied to "Bars & Beats" then they should automatically adjust without having to do the workaround, correct?

In my case, thankfully it was only 8 bars so I could deal with fixing it manually. But I could see this being a huge problem if I need to make this adjustment on a larger scale, over a whole song or really long sections.

[huzzam]

No, they shouldn't have moved. The "bars & beats" vs "absolute" distinction comes into play for *tempo* changes, not time signature changes.

It's a bit confusing, but if instead of "bars & beats" you just think of it as "beats" it's more clear. In your case, the marker stayed on the same beat, i.e. #48 after A, as it should. What constitutes a beat (i.e. the tempo) hasn't changed, so the marker's relationship to time hasn't changed, so it doesn't move.

If you insert a *tempo* change at A, that's when PT needs to know if you want B at 48 beats of the new tempo after A, or at the same number of seconds after A. This is when the distinction comes into play.

If you don't change the tempo, "the same number of beats" and "the same number of seconds" are not different concepts.

Make sense?

[boxofgeese]

Originally Posted by huzzam

It's a bit confusing, but if instead of "bars & beats" you just think of it as "beats" it's more clear. In your case, the marker stated on the same beat, i.e. #48 after A, as it should. If you insert a tempo change at A, that's when PT needs to know if you want B at 48 beats of the new tempo after A, or at the same number of seconds after A.

If you don't change the tempo, "the same number of beats" and "the same number of seconds" are not different concepts.

That is EXACTLY what I was unsure about. Makes total sense. THANK YOU. I had real trouble finding a clear explanation of this online.

So obviously, this whole issue my misunderstanding. Should I delete this post to remove forum clutter? Or leave it for people who face this question in the future?

[huzzam]

Nah leave it up, I'm sure you're not the only one confused by this. It's somewhat counterintuitive...

[boxofgeese]

Actually, one more question.
So, presumably, would the markers act the same way if I was using Event -> Time Operations -> Insert Time ?

[huzzam]

Insert time will move markers if you have "realign meter, tempo, ... and *all* sample-based markers" selected.