Warming Up an 001 Mix

[ansanity]

I'm currently mixing/mastering some songs I recorded in LE 5.1 digi001, and the final mixes are coming out really "digital" sounding and harsh from the plug-in processing. I'd like to warm them up quite a bit. I've tried busing the mixes out to my presonus blue tubes and then back in (i've replaced the sovtek tubes w/ telefunken and mullards), but when I do, it overloads even with the pads on. So I went straight back into the 001 inputs to run it through the 001. That seemed to do a little bit. Does anyone have any other suggestions?? I would love ANY feedback!!

Thanks,
Andy

digi001 LE 5.1
mac G4 dual 60G 867 mhz

[Music Guru]

If you're using OSX (which you might not be), go to pspaudioware.com and buy their VINTAGE WARMER and/ or MIX PACK plug-ins.
Inexpensive and, trust me, just what you're looking for.

[indoe]

I agree, Vintage Warmer is a great plug in.

[ansanity]

Thank you all for your feedback everyone. I unfortunately am still in OS9... I haven't upgraded b/c I have so many plug ins I like to use w/ my 5.1. The vintage plug in doesn't work with 9 does it? that's a bummer. Any other suggestions for OS 9?

I've since learned that -18 digital is analog zero, which is why running back through the mic pres wasn't working. I've run it back through and it actually does warm it up a bit, the telefunken tube sounds great on it, but the blue tube unit it's in i don't think is able to do the job... the soundwave gets a bit messed up, it's not a very "controlled" final product.

I'm also thinking it might be the L1 that's contributing alot to the problem. The 24 bit mixes really don't sound too terribly cold and harsh until i bounce them to CD (16 bit highest resolution setting, limit=4.5, release=10). Does anyone know what the difference is b/w the "highest res" setting and the "dither" setting on the L1? Don't they use the same 'type 1' dither algorithm? I guess I can bring the release down a bit to try and make it a little more transparent.

If you have any ideas of how to "warm up" my 5.1 LE OS9 mix, would love to hear any suggestions - plugins on the final mix, EQ or compression tricks, outboard gear, tape simulation plugins to purchase, whatever.. would love to hear it all!! (pretty bummed about my current final mastered product here)

ps - does anyone know of where i could get demo versions of OS9 tape plugins or the L3 (if there's any such thing as OS9 plugins anymore)

THANKS !!!!

-Andy

[ansanity]

If you're using OSX (which you might not be), go to pspaudioware.com and buy their VINTAGE WARMER and/ or MIX PACK plug-ins.
Inexpensive and, trust me, just what you're looking for.
---------------------

I do have a G4 laptop on which I run 10.3. Do you think it would be worth it to download a free version of ProTools to the laptop and buy the vintage warmer, run it through that, then bring it back into LE on my other computer w/ 5.1 LE? I was just reading up on it... looks like a great plug in.

thanks again -

[accession]

I do have a G4 laptop on which I run 10.3. Do you think it would be worth it to download a free version of ProTools to the laptop and buy the vintage warmer

Won't work, I'm afraid.

There's no free version of Pro Tools for OSX.

Phil

[AverageJoe]

I've since learned that -18 digital is analog zero, which is why running back through the mic pres wasn't working. I've run it back through and it actually does warm it up a bit, the telefunken tube sounds great on it, but the blue tube unit it's in i don't think is able to do the job...

...I'm also thinking it might be the L1 that's contributing alot to the problem. The 24 bit mixes really don't sound too terribly cold and harsh until i bounce them to CD (16 bit highest resolution setting, limit=4.5, release=10). Does anyone know what the difference is b/w the "highest res" setting and the "dither" setting on the L1? Don't they use the same 'type 1' dither algorithm? I guess I can bring the release down a bit to try and make it a little more transparent.

Well, first, if you're using the stock DIGI converters, than I would say that any "warming" you're doing by sending the tracks out to a pre and back in is being totally negated by the extra D/A and A/D conversion. The DIGI D/A is particularly mushy and digitally ugly.

Also, on the L1, my cardinal rule that I NEVER EVER EVER go against is don't put the limit higher than 3. Use 5 L1's in a row if you want, but don't push any of them past 3. Don't know why, but years of the L1 has taught me that. (obviously if you do chain them like that only dither and do bit reduction on the last one).

Just some thoughts there... of course, if the plug-ins are truly the source of your bad sound, there's no magic in the world to get it back. You just gotta use less of them or use them more wisely. Digital EQ is notorious for doing this very thing, so getting it more right at the source will help.

best of luck.

[MissHiss]

You might want to try analog summing and using the EQ on the mixer instead of in Pro Tools. Of all the tricks to get rid of digital harshness, I frankly have found this one works best. And while it's nice to have a great mixer like an SSL to do it, even some relatively cheap mixers can do the job -- such as the analog Mackies, Yamahas, etc. Stay away from really cheap mixers -- they'll add noise and degrade the sound.

I am, in fact, so totally sold on analog summing, I'm thinking about getting the Dangerous 2-bus as my next piece of equipment, though it doesn't have any kind of on-board mixing or processing for individual channels. It sounds great though.

I definitely agree with the comment about digital EQ being notorious for imparting a digital sound. But they're getting better. The best I've heard are the URS EQ plug-ins. Digi's new EQ3 also sounds great, but you wouldn't be able to install it on your system. But many engineers swear by the URS EQs, and I know several who use them almost exclusively.

Beware of the Waves Q10. It's a fantastic plug for surgical EQ, but it won't help the digital harshness issue whatsoever, IMHO.

There's only so much you can do with the stock converters in the 001. They're pretty bad, (though you can get an outboard ADA and use the ADAT connector) but I've found it's more an issue of the digital summing. If you are mixing ITB, those converters don't have any impact on the bounced files, just the incoming signal. They will, of course, have an impact on monitoring, but when I've mixed ITB, I've often found the resulting CD sounds better on a good CD player than it did coming out of the 001.

[MidnightFlyer]

Well, first, if you're using the stock DIGI converters, than I would say that any "warming" you're doing by sending the tracks out to a pre and back in is being totally negated by the extra D/A and A/D conversion. The DIGI D/A is particularly mushy and digitally ugly.

Did you record using the 001's preamps and converters?

If so, there's not much you can do. No plugin will make a Hasbro toy sound pro. You really need hi-quality preamps and A/D converter to get a half-way decent sound.

I'm also on OS9 5.2.1, but I use Brent Averill 1272 preamps and a Rosetta A/D. Even with this, I still need help.

I also use Vintage Warmer a lot, and it did come out for OS9 initially, but I have no idea where you could find it now.

OS9 is so 2002.

[ansanity]

Thanks everyone for all the input.

I used as a mic pre a blue tube w/ a telefunken tube that I have switched out in the unit. But from there, yeah, the path is normally into an EL8 then straight into one of the Digi inputs. So I guess w/ no external A/D conversion, my sounds started to disappear right then. And I guess it got worse with the plug in processing. And the L1 certainly isn't helping my cause either... I'll try processing it a couple of times under 3... it really does degrade badly from that point on. It seems like I just have to salvage what I can out of this project. I realize the 001 and OS9 is ancient, but I've acquired plugins for it over the years that I'd hate to lose. That's why I've resisted up to this point.

As far as future projects go, I have definitely realized that I need to get some equipment to help me avoid the digital harshness. Can anyone suggest any A/D converters, mixers (i currently just mix within protools with no external mixer), mic pres, plugins or anything else that might help me save my sounds in the future?

Thanks again everyone for all the advice and input. It's the first time I've done a project entirely in my home space, so it's been very helpful helping me identify some mistakes that I won't make next time as far as this issue goes. I definitely learned my lesson. grrrrr....