PDC satus for PTLE

[zakco]

Hello,

This is my first post here.
I am considering purchasing a 002 Rack to use as a location recording DAW.

In regards to PTLE....it is my understanding that there is no automatic plugin delay compensation.

Is this correct?

Is so, has digidesign offered any indication of when this very important feature will be available on this platform?

Thanks,

-Zak

[albee1952]

PTLE does not include this feature and it does not seem to be that important as most RTAS plugins do not have significant delay. The newest version of the TDN software for HD does include this feature.

[zakco]

PTLE does not include this feature and it does not seem to be that important as most RTAS plugins do not have significant delay. The newest version of the TDN software for HD does include this feature.

Thanks for the info.

What about using VST plugins with the RTAS wrapper?
Or is VST compatibility a TDM only feature as well?

Just out of curiosity, what is considered a "significant" delay?
My experience has been that it doesn't require very much plugin latency to cause phase issues with multimicing and/or multing within a DAW mixer.
Is this really not an issue on PTLE?
Even when using mults?

I must say that I find it pretty odd the digi would leave ADC out of LE.
ALL of the serious PC comptetion (Samplitude/Nuendo/Cubase/Sonar) have implemented ADC with their ENTIRE product line. Even the "lite" versions.

Is it some kind of hardware limitation or simply a misguided marketing strategy?

Thanks again for the reply,

-Zak

[albee1952]

Rumor has it that the VST-RTAS wrapper does not induce any delay itself. I have put up to 5 plugins on individual drum tracks without any noticeable change in the feel of the performance. A simple test that I may do for my own sanity would be to duplicate a snare track, then load in common plugins (one at a time) on one of the 2 tracks, then play them back and listen for phase/flange problems. Even if I do hear a slight effect, if its under 2ms, I probably would not bother correcting it as most human performances are not that perfect anyway. A phase issue on a single track will go unnoticed without another similar track for it to work against(like a bass DI track against a mic'd bass amp track. Consider the phase issues on a drum kit with 6-9 mics on it. That doesn't stop us from putting up those mics anyway. There has been much discussion on ADC and many opinions to both sides of its importance. As for DIGI's attitude, I suspect they may feel that they are in the hardware business first and so do not invest quite as much effort (as we might like) into perfecting every last detail of their LE aka "limited edition" software. Many of us are making great music despite all the "perceived problems" of LE. The best we can all do is to keep asking and keep learning. At the end of the day, if it sounds good, it is good, no matter how technically incorrect-and if it sounds bad.....now if I could get that guy to take his foot off my pizza...

[zakco]

I guess I should clarify a bit.....

I'm not so concerned with a 2ms delay affecting feel on a single track. But I do feel pretty strongly about the phase effects on mults and/or multi-mic setups.

I get your point in regards to the fact that all multimic setups have inherent phase issues, but we spend a great deal of time and effort in coordinating this relationship to sound a specific way.
I DON'T want to hear ANY difference on playback. No comb filtering, no matter how subtle it may be. As you said, "if it sounds right - it is" but if it sounds audibly different, that is simply not acceptable in my books. Otherwise, what's the point of spending several hours teching a drum kit and carefully balancing the phase relationship of 10 mics, just to have it change when you add a plugin.

Also, when you use multiple busses for example with a drum kit....suppose I create a stereo subgroup with just kick and snare, another for the toms and OH, a third for the room mics, and one more to combine them. What happens when we put a compressor and an EQ the first group, an EQ and a multiband comp on the second, a different compressor and EQ on the third? Wouldn't these different plugin combinations introduce varying delays, that result in audible phase issues?

I'm not trying to slag PT, and I'm not saying that you can't create decent work with PTLE, but I don't think ADC is something that can be easily dismissed as unimportant.

Specifically, I'm concerned with using the UAD-1 plugins with the RTAS wrapper. These processors generally have higher latencies than other native plugins.

Can anyone comment specifically on using the UAD in PTLE and this issue?

Thanks again,

-Zak

[da BaSsTaRd!]

I'm not trying to slag PT, and I'm not saying that you can't create decent work with PTLE, but I don't think ADC is something that can be easily dismissed as unimportant.

you're so right. i've been driving this bandwagon since i learned that PTLE wouldn't have this really important feature. however, most people here have been pretty apethetic about it - nobody really seems to care much.

oh well. i'm on SX now (run off my 001). i'm not upgrading my digi software or hardware until we get ADC for PTLE. by the way, that's not a protest statement or anything - i just don't see an upgrade path right now, and seeing as how the next software upgrade will REQUIRE a hardware upgrade for me... oh well, looks like i'm on the 001 for a while, or i'll have to go with something different (which i don't want to do because i need PT for certain things).

also, the thing about the uad plugs is that they induce 3 times the latency of your hardware buffer. that's because the signal has to get sent outside PT and back in again (as when you use actual hardware inserts). i don't know why there's a third "crossing" in or out of PT, but that's the formula: 3 X buffer latency. uad includes a compensator plug that you can insert on ALL your tracks that aren't using uad plugins so that all the tracks are being delayed by the same amount.

i have a question, though. what happens when you insert 2 uad plugs on a single track? is the latency the same? or is it 6 X the buffer latency?

[zakco]

most people here have been pretty apethetic about it - nobody really seems to care much.

I suppose that most people using LE don't have the same work habits or performance expectations as the TDM crowd. Or the Cubase Crowd or the Samplitude Crowd or....

oh well. i'm on SX now.

So am I. Strange how the "industry standard" is missing such important features that we are forced to use another platform that is looked upon as a toy by most PT users. How ironic. But to be fair, there are several quirks with SX that I'm not so happy about either. Like the lack of flexibility in the mixer's bussing architecture. But that's another rant altogether.

i'm not upgrading my digi software or hardware until we get ADC for PTLE. by the way, that's not a protest statement or anything - i just don't see an upgrade path right now, and seeing as how the next software upgrade will REQUIRE a hardware upgrade for me

Hmmm...will that be true for the 002 as well? Will ADC require new hardware?

uad includes a compensator plug that you can insert on ALL your tracks that aren't using uad plugins so that all the tracks are being delayed by the same amount.

Yeah, it works, but it's not a very elegant solution. Who wants to spend that much time/energy keeping track of delay compensation throughout a 40+ track mix. It really disrupts my workflow. Especially with clients asking WTF you are doing. Add one more plug to a channel and you have to up the delay count to ALL the others. One and a time. No thanks.

i have a question, though. what happens when you insert 2 uad plugs on a single track? is the latency the same? or is it 6 X the buffer latency?

Double the latency...hence my last statement.

Oh well, unless digi suddenly announces ADC for LE, it's looking like the 002 is not for me. Bummer.

-Z-

[da BaSsTaRd!]

...Like the lack of flexibility in the mixer's bussing architecture. But that's another rant altogether.

yea. well, nothing's perfect. i use both PT and SX. i prefer SX for most of my stuff but i have to say - i really can't live without PT because there are some things that just can't be done (efficiently) in SX. actually, between the 2, you get the best of all DAWs.

Hmmm...will that be true for the 002 as well? Will ADC require new hardware?

no. PTLE 6.4 is the last upgrade for the 001 (which i have). if you have the 002 or 002R or mbox, that's not the case. those will be supported for a long time. that's actually something that digi is VERY good at - keeping hardware support for a VERY long time. the 001 was introduced over 5 years ago. try to find another soundcard (or any piece of computer equipment) over 5 years old that's still being supported fully.

[zakco]

yea. well, nothing's perfect. i use both PT and SX. i prefer SX for most of my stuff but i have to say - i really can't live without PT because there are some things that just can't be done (efficiently) in SX. actually, between the 2, you get the best of all DAWs.

Just out of curiosity, which functions do you rely on PT for?
I'm assuming you prefer SX for it's midi features....

if you have the 002 or 002R or mbox, that's not the case. those will be supported for a long time. that's actually something that digi is VERY good at - keeping hardware support for a VERY long time. the 001 was introduced over 5 years ago. try to find another soundcard (or any piece of computer equipment) over 5 years old that's still being supported fully.

That's good news, I think I'm going to rent a 0002R and put it through its' paces as a remote rig.
If it works well for me, I'll try it back at the studio with some of my regular projects.

Thanks for the info,

-Zak

[marcusb]

I'm not so concerned with a 2ms delay affecting feel on a single track. But I do feel pretty strongly about the phase effects on mults and/or multi-mic setups.

as any good engineer would be

Also, when you use multiple busses for example with a drum kit....suppose I create a stereo subgroup with just kick and snare, another for the toms and OH, a third for the room mics, and one more to combine them. What happens when we put a compressor and an EQ the first group, an EQ and a multiband comp on the second, a different compressor and EQ on the third? Wouldn't these different plugin combinations introduce varying delays, that result in audible phase issues?

Yes they MAY (depends on the plugin manufacturer), it is possible in PT to display the number of samples of delay a plugin introduces and you simply nudge your audio regions back by that amount. It's not the most efficient solution but it works. I've been a protools user for around 5 years and this has never been a significant problem, you just need to be aware of it.

I've got a good feeling PDC won't be seen in ProTools LE anytime in the near future cos I think it requires some significant re-writing of the audio engine.

I'm not trying to slag PT, and I'm not saying that you can't create decent work with PTLE, but I don't think ADC is something that can be easily dismissed as unimportant.

We all coped fine for the past many years, just cos the competition has it doesn't mean you're screwed without it.

Specifically, I'm concerned with using the UAD-1 plugins with the RTAS wrapper. These processors generally have higher latencies than other native plugins.

Dude why don't you just go an use Cubase SX and be done with it, doesn't sound like PT is for you.

Cheers,
Marcus