Need snare help

[UnlikeKurt]

Hello...
so here's the situation....i set up my snare drum, tuned the head and placed a dynamic mic on it...plugged it into the 002r, then i plugged it into an external pre,.....i can get a good level out of it...but not a good presense.....do you guys have any advice..i guess for drum mics in general....do you run plugins on your signal chain when recording (ie. an aux track)? how do i get that nice snare sound ? Any advice or links to sites or whatever will help...the stuff i've read while searching the duc hasn't really helped that much so far..
thanks
James

[pk_hat]

Hello...
plugged it into the 002r, then i plugged it into an external pre,.....

First off:

bookmark this site to learn more about signal chain and any other topics on recording. It's an excellent ressource.

Now, when you say you plug the snare mic into the 002R, THEN into a mic pre, the element of surprise is greatly narrowed. Which is it, the 002R mic input or line input? If you're using one of the first 4 channels, you don't need an extra preamp. Make sure to select 'MIC' on the corresponding front panel button.

If you're using an external preamp, you need to plug your mic into that first, then feed one of the 002R's LINE inputs (5-8). Bottom line in this case, imo, is you need to experiment with mic placement and get the best sound you can at the source. Putting a plugin as an insert will affect the sound of your snare, but it won't print to the track, meaning you'd have to re-route that track to yet another audio track and record the result.

As a general rule, eq's and compressors (very commonly used on snares) are to be inserts 'in line' with the track, meaning they affect the entire signal. Things like reverb and delays are to be bussed to an aux track so that you can balanced your orginal and effected sounds to taste.

[punker]

i too also tryed using a dynamic mic (sm57) on my snare (like most people) and couldn't get the snares all i got was drum with no snares, so i then tried using a pencil condenser and bam i got a sweet snare sound that was full and had a lot of snares to it, try using a small diaphram condenser pointed slightly off axis about 2-3 inches from the shell of the drum not the head, it worked for me it might work for you

[Giles Reaves]

i too also tryed using a dynamic mic (sm57) on my snare (like most people) and couldn't get the snares all i got was drum with no snares, so i then tried using a pencil condenser and bam i got a sweet snare sound that was full and had a lot of snares to it, try using a small diaphram condenser pointed slightly off axis about 2-3 inches from the shell of the drum not the head, it worked for me it might work for you

And if you do, don't forget to use the mic's pad, if it has one. Snares can be quite loud! (duh...)

As for the SM-57, most engineers will tell you that you must use at least a little high EQ boost on this combo (57/snare). Additionally, part of the sound will also come from the over head mics (which are typically condensers), and it's not un-common to use a mic under the snare to help with the "snare" part of the sound. When using a mic under the snare, make sure to reverse it's polarity in relation to the top mic. Many engineers use matching 57s for the over/under technique, some prefer a condenser on the bottom. Go easy on the bottom mic when mixing, it can get a little "ratty" if overused.

And I would be remiss if I were not to mention the sound of the snare itself. Make sure the heads are fresh, as high end is one of the first things to go on old heads. This goes for top AND bottom heads. If you're confident with your tuning skills and your instrument, then it's down to the recording chain. If you have the time, experiment with mic placement. It can really make a big difference. If you aim at the center of the head, you will tend to get more of the fundimental tone, or the body/bottom end. If you aim towards the edge of the drum, you will tend to get more overtones, or ring/mid-range). As you move away from the drum, you capture more of the natural tone of the snare drum, but it may not sound as present and agressive. Depends on the drum and the mic, of course.

Hope at least some of this helps, as always, YMMV.

[where02190]

Snare sound is mroe than what comes from the snare mic, overheads and room mic capture much of the snares tone, especially the snares, and add greatly to the snare drum presence. Overheads and room mics are iMHO key to a good kit sound. Also as important are the sound of the room, and the kit. All must be in harmony or the sound will suffer.

If you cannot obtain a decent snare sound with a 57 and the 002R preamps, change the mic position, tuning, change drums, reposition them in the room...as the 57 is a very good mic for snare and the 002r pres wil yield a good quality signal. Inotherwords, the signal chain is good. While this may not be the Holy Grail of snare chains it certainly can and has produced great sounding snare drum sounds, in conjunctionw ith properly placed good quality overhead and room mics and pres.

I never, ever eq going in, it's too easy to think you've got a great sound, only to find out that you've manipulated it into being good, and when you need to add more eq during mixdown it all falls apart. I will use an outboard pe/comp, typically a DBX1086, and compress jsut slightly on the peaks, 2:1 ratio, no mor ethan 3db of reduction. When mixing, I generally compress the snare again, using either a DBX160X or a Distressor, with the same guidelines; 2:1 ratio, no more than 3db reduction.

Not to repeat myself, but the room sound, overheads and the sound fo the kit as one big instrument are all factors of getting a good snare sound. Listen to what it sounds like acoustically, get to know that sound, then reproduce it in your control room.

Other factors are your monitors and control room acoustics. If you don't have good, accurate monitors, you can't hear properly what you're recording, and even with high precision monitors, if your control room is not properly tuned, you will not be hearing accurately what you are recording.

It's alot more than just a drum, a mic and cable.

[Jace Everett]

I'm with where on this one all the way.

I'd even go so far to say an entire kit sounds only as good as the overheads. Think about it... When you listen to a drummer play in a nice sounding room, how often do you go put your ear two inches from his snare?! Or any other drum/cymbal?!

The close micing is done so when mixing you have the ability to get more or less of specific pieces of a kit. In 15 years of recording, from at home to major label stuff, I honestly can't recall seeing anything but a 57 on a snare drum.

Chances are what you're missing would be found on a stereo pair of condensers about 2 feet over your cymbals.

[lexicon5]

Believe it or not....we once used the SM57 on top and bottom scheme, bottom out of phase with top yadda yadda....the big freakin surprise was when I pulled my Radio Shack PZM (licensed from Crown) out.....taped it above the drummer...just above his head, low ceiling helped. OMG! Holy crap....drummer perspective! If you can find one of these early RS PZMs....there are little secrets that are mostly overlooked. Nearly identical to the Crown PZM 6D...a lot cheaper though. still have it and use it from time to time.
It comes with a 1/4" connector...wired unbalanced. BUT....it is a balanced mic, cut the 1/4" off, strip back the insulation and there it is....Hot, Not and Ground. Also, the SPL that this mic handles is almost beyond belief. Output gain can be increased by installing two 6-volt Photo Lithium batteries in place of the single 1.5 volt AA.
One of the regular contributors to EQ Mag, Eddie Ciletti had a circuit to bypass the battery pack altogether and phantom power it from the mixer or whatever....the article may still be available from his site: http://www.tangible-technology.com/archive.html
or you can e-mail him and see if he'll send it.
Rush once recorded the Professors entire kit utilizing a Crown PZM gaffer taped to the chest of Neil...fairly effective.
Experiment....experiment...experiment....

[Jace Everett]

True dat Lexi,

My drummer has his Sony stereo mic (a mic meant for a minidisc recorder) set up as a room mic from the "audience" perspective.

IT ROCKS in a track!

His live recordings of some of our gigs consist of nothing but that mic behind his head. Even the kick makes you cry for mama.

Good call lexicon.

[JFreak]

I'm with where on this one all the way.

I'd even go so far to say an entire kit sounds only as good as the overheads. Think about it... When you listen to a drummer play in a nice sounding room, how often do you go put your ear two inches from his snare?! Or any other drum/cymbal?!

The close micing is done so when mixing you have the ability to get more or less of specific pieces of a kit. In 15 years of recording, from at home to major label stuff, I honestly can't recall seeing anything but a 57 on a snare drum.

Chances are what you're missing would be found on a stereo pair of condensers about 2 feet over your cymbals.

i totally agree.

now i'm talking about live situation here, but sometimes i find it enought to put pair of overheads, one mic for kick, and one for snare bottom. good overhead placement gets enough snare-top and toms too, and if i have little time for soundcheck, i might not even think about adding more mics for the kit.

remember, the kit is a kit. it's far more than individual drums. key to good sound is to capture the kit.