Hardware Routing first setup advice needed

[wickett]

Hi. Can anyone advise me on connecting my carbon and hardware.
I usually record through a chain of stereo neve pre, followed by 1176 and LA2A compressors each connected via a patchbay. Would it be best to connect the end of the chain to variable Z inputs 5-8?

There is no DI on the neve pre for guitars so with my last interface I would plug them into an instrument input on the interface and then back out into the neve>1176>LA2A>Interface line in.

I would also like to re=purpose the outboard during my mixes.
Thanks

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by wickett

Hi. Can anyone advise me on connecting my carbon and hardware.
I usually record through a chain of stereo neve pre, followed by 1176 and LA2A compressors each connected via a patchbay. Would it be best to connect the end of the chain to variable Z inputs 5-8?

There is no DI on the neve pre for guitars so with my last interface I would plug them into an instrument input on the interface and then back out into the neve>1176>LA2A>Interface line in.

I would also like to re=purpose the outboard during my mixes.
Thanks

I am guessing your old interface had a hardware insert for the mic/DI?

It really makes no sense to want to connect your preamp-compressor chain output to a variable Z input. That input is designed for high-impedance instruments, not low impedance outputs of preamps or compressors.

You can buy a DI box (you should have some in studio just 'coz) and stick that in front of you preamp or just try running the instrument into the variable Z input, playing with that and with guitar amp sims and any other plugins you want. (I would try both approaches and compare).

[wickett]

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

I am guessing your old interface had a hardware insert for the mic/DI?

It really makes no sense to want to connect your preamp-compressor chain output to a variable Z input. That input is designed for high-impedance instruments, not low impedance outputs of preamps or compressors.

You can buy a DI box (you should have some in studio just 'coz) and stick that in front of you preamp or just try running the instrument into the variable Z input, playing with that and with guitar amp sims and any other plugins you want. (I would try both approaches and compare).

Thanks for clearing that up. The avid tutorial video shows Variable Z inputs 5-8 can be used to change the sound and character of microphones and 2 Variable Z inputs on the front are suited more to guitars.
I just wanted to know if inputs 5-8 could also be used with pre amp outputs.

I have a DI box but it is old and noisy I can't afford to buy the 2 good quality DI's needed for both bass and guitar at the moment. My last interface also had HI Z inputs which I used to DI guitars out to my Pre and comps. This eliminated the noise from the guitar/bass pickups. I cannot get anywhere near the sound of my hardware with plugins.

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by wickett

Thanks for clearing that up. The avid tutorial video shows Variable Z inputs 5-8 can be used to change the sound and character of microphones and 2 Variable Z inputs on the front are suited more to guitars.
I just wanted to know if inputs 5-8 could also be used with pre amp outputs.

Input 5-8 *line input* absolutely yes, and then you don’t have variable-Z, you normally would not run a preamp-compressor signal chain into a preamp. Why would you want to? And even if you did the variable-Z won’t have near/any effect because it’s seeing a low-impedance output.

If you don’t have any outboard DI that works then you have no choice you will be plugging straight into the DI input on the Carbon. Again, you are not describing what you did before? What old interface? You were using DI/preamp inserts on the interface? (Not Pro Tools hardware inserts?)??

For much of electric guitar processing I really doubt that fancy preamps and compressor hardware will make much difference if you are going to hit a amp sim plugin, or if going to reamp through a physical amp. And the grittier/more distorted the least it will make any difference/same not be achievable with plugins.

Nice that Avid found inspiration from the “True-Z” input on the Eleven Rack, the little orange box that could.

[wickett]

Yes I meant line inputs 5-8
Sorry I don't know the science behind imedance. All I know is that some guitars and basses buzz.

I plugged guitars into the Hi-Z /instrument input of an antelope orion synergy core (which functions in the same way as the ones on the carbon).
I then sent that signal out from a line output of the antelope orion synergy core to my neve pre>1176>LA2A chain - back into a line input on the antelope orion synergy core which was then routed to a record track on one of several daws.

I know from experience that the plugins dont sound or respond in the same way as driving the signal through an analogue chain of pres and comps. But that's an argument I don't wish to discuss

[Darryl Ramm]

Originally Posted by wickett

Yes I meant line inputs 5-8
Sorry I don't know the science behind imedance. All I know is that some guitars and basses buzz.

I plugged guitars into the Hi-Z /instrument input of an antelope orion synergy core (which functions in the same way as the ones on the carbon).
I then sent that signal out from a line output of the antelope orion synergy core to my neve pre>1176>LA2A chain - back into a line input on the antelope orion synergy core which was then routed to a record track on one of several daws.

OK so not a insert in the interface hardware (like say Avid Omni provides on it's mic/DI inputs), and I am *guessing* you were routing this signal in and back out again using the hardware mixer in the Synergy Core? That's a bit of faffing around for what you can do in an outboard DI box but if it's working for you great.

You can do the same with Carbon, but it does not have a separate onboard hardware based mixer/effects. That's really the core selling proposition of Carbon, it is fully integrated with Pro Tools without needing to deal with stand alone mixers/effects.

You would normally do something like this using Pro Tools "hardware inserts". If hardware insets is new to you the Pro Tools reference guide covers that fairly well. The largest mistake people make with inserts is not numerically matching the inputs and outputs used in the inserts. You for example would go into a DI variable Z input from a guitar or bass, and configure say Input 1 and Output 1 to be a hardware insert and cable your preamp and compressor between those. This is one thing worth "doing properly" and using hardware inserts.

It may be worth picking up a book and reading about impedance and what it means in audio equipment/recording.

A DI does two things, (1) helps the high-impedance (think weak, no power) guitar signal drive a pre-amp, i.e. provides more voltage signal level and avoids the pre-amp (and cables etc.) affecting the signal too much and (2) it decouples the single sided (signal and ground) electrical signal from a guitar or bass to a floating balance signal (+ve signal and -ve signal and a decoupled ground) to avoid ground loop/hum. How well DI (esp. those built into interfaces) are can vary, especially with #2. Sometimes nothing beats a real outboard DI, including because you can run them close to the guitar. If you are trying to solve noise issues and/or best choice of DI approach or if a DI will help at all depends on what type of noise (actual AC mains hum? radio frequency noise/hash etc.), what pickups, if the guitar is well shielded, if you can remove noise sources, and if the noise is coming though the power line or not, (say esp. fluorescent lights, motors-e.g. refrigerators etc.), pedals in the signal chain etc.

And now Avid adds Variable-Z to help mess up stuff that a DI is intended to help reduce, but hopefully it's a good mess-up. The argument for variable-Z and similar technology is it better emulates real analog equipment, I think it's a bit over hyped or often just not relevant (e.g. seen folks going on about Eleven Rack True-Z when the first pedal in their signal chain is a tuner with signal buffering). But now you have that in your system you might as well play with it whether you run though your hardware as inserts or trying out plugins. But again depends on the signal chain, different pedals, active pickups etc. significantly change the story.

[K Roche]

So backing up a bit
If you did not already realize this:: The Carbon has 8 analog Mic/line inputs via the combi(XLR-1/4 in) inputs on the back, and also has 8 analog line inputs via the DB25 input connector on the back
So you can connect up to 16 analog channels BUT the DB 25 mirrors the Combi connectors, so you can only use 8 channels at any one time as it only has 8 channels of A/D conversion . And you can set up any of the 8 channels to be in "True Bypass" so line signals do not go into the mic pre's

Now as Daryl noted it does not appear that you are using your compressors as Hardware inserts But you may want to think about doing so

I have both of Hardware FX units ( a 2 channel Mastering Compressor) and (a 2 Channel stereo Reverb) Using the DB 25 connectors and set up as Hardware inserts... That way it is easy to repurpose (if that is what you meant ) and go from using them while recording to using them while mixing... Also that way if you set them up on a parallel Aux FX track you can also send multiple channels to them at the same time.
For example I have my reverb set up as an insert on it's own Aux track and I send multiple guitar and vocal tracks to it
And my compressor is on my 2 Bus (all mix Bus) that the entire mix routs to...
All very handy

[wickett]

Yes the idea is to re-purpose the inserts for mixing.
I have both of my mono compressors normalled to the carbon via a patchbay.
Outputs via DB25 cable and inputs via Carbon line inputs

Carbon DB25 Line Out 7 > 1176 comp input
1176 comp Out > Carbon In 7

Carbon DB25 Line Out 8 > LA2A comp input
LA2A comp Out > Carbon In 8

I did manage to get both inserts working but after changing my I/O inputs and outputs to mono it they stopped working.

[K Roche]

Originally Posted by wickett

Yes the idea is to re-purpose the inserts for mixing.
I have both of my mono compressors normalled to the carbon via a patchbay.
Outputs via DB25 cable and inputs via Carbon line inputs

Carbon DB25 Line Out 7 > 1176 comp input
1176 comp Out > Carbon In 7

Carbon DB25 Line Out 8 > LA2A comp input
LA2A comp Out > Carbon In 8

I did manage to get both inserts working but after changing my I/O inputs and outputs to mono it they stopped working.

Humm ? First I am not sure what you mean "Carbon DB25 Line Out 7 > 1176 comp input 1176 comp Out > Carbon In 7 ??

If you are using the DB 25 line out for your physical out from Carbon to the input on the 1176----- then the out from the 1176 should be going to the DB25 in on the Carbon ... At least that is how I have mine set up ???


Also I assume you are selecting these in the i/o section at the bottom of the Insert button dropdown window--- yes ?

So both of my HW units are 2 channel so my I/O stereo ... But I am guessing you may want to leave yours stereo ? Because for example (If) I want use my compressor to record a mono vocal I simply choose the L or R that come up in the I/O selection in the insert window and use it mono

Here is my Compressor ( labeled 3U) on the stereo 2 Mix Bus



And here is the 3U on the mono vocal track (notice how it automatically switched to 3U -L and 3U-R on the mono track ...



This is what my I/O matrix looks like as you can see I have my 3U compressor on channels 5-6 and my M7 reverb on channels 7-8 and all the physical connections are via the DB 25 out and in (thus leaving the 8 combi XLR connectors free for microphones ) although I only really use 1-3

[wickett]

I have it working now thanks for your help