Subwoofer to use with yamaha hs50m monitors?

[boabyd23]

hi guys,

I jus purchased the hs50m monitors due to overwhelming praise I've heard and seen of them. I looked at the hs80m's but other than a bit bigger and being able to go down in hz by 13 more I didn't see other than that to get them. I'm looking into getting a sub as welland was wondering if there are any users using something other than the hs10m.

Also if anyone can give some good advice on how they use and setup their hs50m's would be great.

[BradLyons]

I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant here so please bare with me. Back in late 1990's EVENT ELECTRONICS designed, built, and shipped about the most perfect little pair of studio monitors for the home studio called the TRIA's. These were a pair of TINY monitors and a subwoofer, but it never caught on with the general public and certainly not the typical dealer channel. The reason for this is simple....who wants small speakers in their studio, ones that look whimpy....we want manly looking monitors with big woofers, right? When you get into the acoustics of a bedroom studio you have numerous issues and MAJOR flaws! Unfortunately just putting acoustic treatment into the room is gives one a false and mis-leading understanding of what's going on. Sure it's easy to hear the reduction of high frequency echos and phasing problems, but you can NOT PHYSICALLY HEAR THE LOWER FREQUENCIES. And since you can't hear them, there must not be an issue--right? WRONG!! THIS IS THE #1 THING THAT AFFECTS EVERY HOME STUDIO..... All you have to do is listen to your mix through those monitors the way you want to hear them in the mix position, then burn it to CD and go play in your car or home stereo system. Chances are you're going to hear some excessive bass response. This is due to standing waves and bass build-up due to the longer, slower frequency waveforms to reach their full 360 degrees. Okay so here's the point I'm getting to...... HOME STUDIOS TYPICALLY HAVE THESE ISSUES WITH BASS RESPONSE, SO BUYING A LARGE SPEAKER WITH AN 8" WOOFER ONLY COMPLICATES THE ISSUE.

So how do you get around this problem? Just install bass traps on the wall? Well that's better than not doing it and something one should really do anyway, but it really is handled in the construction of the room both in the geometry but also what's in the wall. For a home studio this usually is something that can't be altered, so you must work with it. So again, HOW do you get around this problem? As I see it....you're on the right track here and that is buy SMALLER monitors and add a SUBWOOFER. This takes me back to those Event Tria's and what was so good about them. When you place studio monitors up in the room they are going to be pretty close to the wall in a home studio, that's hard to get away from. But either way the closer you are to the back wall the more bass build-up there is. Sometimes it's a more accurate bass and sometimes it's exaggerated. But leaving that much room just isn't realistic. Larger monitors produce more of the lower-end frequency that causes the issue and shoots around your head, again due to the distance of the frequency waveform lengths. It is my belief from experiencing this myself and numerous clients over the years that the BEST approach is not the most preferred in terms of "appearance" or "perceived wow factor" and that, again, is the small monitors with the subwoofer. I have used the Tria's in some pretty awful rooms with amazing results, and these days with smaller monitors and subs in the same capacity. By placing the subwoofer in the listening position you're now able to hear and feel the bass in the mix position. No this doesn't fix the acoustics of the room, but it allows YOU to actually HEAR the bass that's there. The second reason that the TRIA's and this ideal hasn't caught on, as I see it, is PRICE. It's MORE expensive to go this route at times---then again, whoever said that the best things are the easiest? I mean in this case a pair of HS80's are certainly cheaper than a pair of HS50's and a good subwoofer---right?

Okay.....what is the size of your room including ceiling height? Do you have any obstacles including poles in the room, odd-walls, extra windows, etc?

[BradLyons]

FYI here is the studio at my church where I was at yesterday morning. Notice that my monitors are right up against a wall..... This has been an issue with the previous Mackie HR824's. It's not a large room, but not a small room either.... but that wall of gear makes a problem. In this case, I replaced the HR824's with JBL LSR4326's and the 12" subwoofer that sits just below the desk. The difference was night and day....

Check out this photo: http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...apeimage_3.png

[bfx]

Wow, that was an interesting read! Sorry to chime in like that but I am thinking of getting a subwoofer, too, for some time now. I got a little worried as you mentioned the HR824's getting replaced as I actually plan to expand my HR624's. Since they don't go as low as their bigger siblings I hope it won't matter in my case.

There's one thing I do not understand, maybe you could explain a little further:

By placing the subwoofer in the listening position you're now able to hear and feel the bass in the mix position.

Some time ago I read (in the Katz book?) about the not-perfect-but-working approach to place the sub in the listening position. Then listening to some sound and placing the sub where the bass response sounded most accurate. In my experiments so far I used to come up with the place right between the main speakers. That was not in a home studio, though, but a bigger, more or less dedicated room. Is there a better way to do it, besides expensive measurements, of course...?

As the thread starter I am also interested in what sub to invest. But I guess that's also a matter of my room specs, right?

[boabyd23]

Hi,

that response was very informative and nice setup. Unfortunatly my mix for time being will be done in a house room. Not the best room for mixing in but it's all I got. I've been using ns10s and have been given some good clean results however have been hearing good things on the hs50m's.


Just too add, I've been looking at the rokits Krk rp5k g2.

Has anyone got any experience on these and what would be best buy.

These or the hs50m's

[BradLyons]

Well placing the sub in the mix position and the position where it sounded most accurate really is the same thing, I guess The reason the HR824's were replaced is they are an older speaker that while they did the job, I've always had an issue mixing the high-end on them. In my personal studio I use the JBL LSR6328's which are monitors I never expected to purchase. Previously I was using a pair of ADAM Audio S1A's with their 10" sub, significantly more money. I took home several sets of monitors that were as much as $5,000 and ultimately the ones I settled on were the least expensive. Unfortunately many will judge monitors by listening to a CD through them, but that's just a flawed way to do it. The ONLY way to accurately test a monitor is MIX on them and playback your mix in another system. While the JBL's didn't have the same high-end accuracy and detail that my ADAM's did, they are like mixing on a nice, high-end home stereo system that translates incredibly well! That's why we went with the lower LSR4300 series for the church setup, and it's been an incredible upgrade. You see, that room has concrete walls and an open area behind that wall of gear in the front. That's an open area, just big racks with gear in it which creates a cavity in behind (that's where our Venue I/O rack and all wiring/patching for the sanctuary is at).

Your HR624's are just fine....as long as you train yourself to deal with the high frequency issue. For me, I don't like adjusting A good sub might be the key for you, but you should also considering checking out the ARC plugin from IK Multimedia, it actually works!

Here is my current control room and as you can see, the monitors are quite close to the wall:

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...rol%20Room.jpg

HOWEVER I did some serious building into this studio, the acoustics are just fine. These LSR6328's don't need a sub in that room, I have tons of bass response that is both accurate and I can feel/hear it. To better understand the layout of the room, this is the blueprint I drew up.

http://www.theaudioprofessional.com/...20design_1.jpg


MAKE YOUR MONITORS WORK IN THE ROOM, work with the room..not against it. YOU ABSOLUTELY can get great results out of the HS50's, but adding a subwoofer will certainly make sense too if you can go that way. Buy what you can today knowing you can add to it later, don't cut your future performance by "settling" for something.

[sunburst79]

Yamaha makes a nice subwoofer to go with their speakers....

[bfx]

Well placing the sub in the mix position and the position where it sounded most accurate really is the same thing, I guess

I almost guessed that but was not familiar with the term "mix position". If I understand correctly now, it means "where the sub/speaker stands while mixing".

Your HR624's are just fine....as long as you train yourself to deal with the high frequency issue.

Yeah that's weird. My mixes usually come out too dull at first. I also thought of the ARC plugin but as my speakers only go down to approx. 40 Hz I cannot "feel" or estimate any sub basses, from the kick for example. That's why I'd like to try a sub. As it seems the matching product from Mackie is not available in Europe any more. So I'm going to ask around for alternatives...

[albee1952]

Personally, I think the KRK Ergo and JBL MCS-1 are a much better solution than the ARC. With the hardware devices, they can stay in line all the time(with the ARC plugin, you MUST remember to bypass it before bouncing to disc). I feed my sub thru a digital crossover and use the delay function to align it to my main speakers, and use a filter to correct for the slope of the sub's own crossover. I was amazed to run pink noise thru 2 different powered subs, with their crossovers set around 80Hz, and see strong response up to nearly 200Hz! IOW, sometimes you just can't trust the knobs so trust your ears and verify with measurement.