Is Pro Tools dying?

[spenner]

Originally Posted by houser

Some of it reminds me a bit of the general rumormongering on the internet.
We get a sense of that we have access to information that we can make informed decisions on. We speak as if we know things and then speculation starts from there and we are rather lost. It is not a logically sound way of assessing things, and a tiresome one for those that go about it.

+1

When the mass migration from PT by pro facilities comes to my area, then I will ask is PT dying.

[derFunkenstein]

I love that the official Avid account said "yeah there are people who are upset, but let's talk about your problem instead".

[NuBus]

I think Protools will live on for a long time

It was just the wrong time for Avid to pick their customers pockets with this last Rendition of Protools!!!!

I don't know anyone personally who is running protools 10 most are still on 7.4, 8 and 9 and will be for some time. [no 10 upgrade in sight]

So that being said I don't see protools dying at all, it will live on in all the versions that made it what it is today

Avid as a company???????

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Avid

Your figures are not actually correct, and you are misleading people by posting them as facts. Avid Audio/Digi has never had a 400-500 person Engineering staff. We have also never had "no [internal] development and engineering staff" at any point in our history. Despite the challenges we (like many other companies) have faced, we still have a solid and credible team within Engineering as well as in Product Management, Support, etc., and yes this even still includes some long term "digi" vets. You absolutely have the right to disagree with our business decisions and practices if you want, but please do not make up 'facts' to try to make a point. Thank you.

Really? How many people were employed at Daly City in 2007 adn what specific products did they work on? How many people were employed in Irwindale as of 2007 and what specific products did they work on? How many of them (in both places) were in the engineering and development dept?

how many people were laid off in Oct, 23 2008 and which locations were they from? How many people were laid off in 2010? Which divisions/departments were they from? how many people were laid off in 2011 and from where?

And to correct you, I am not saying the guys at global logic are subpar. But what I am saying is they are not specialists with years of experience in making and developing DAWS. And from my own previous experiences at software companies who also looked into outsourcing development... they cannot match the level of expertise a highly specialized and experienced team within that specific focus can achieve.

And while you can tell me there are lots of protools software and hardware developers running around the hallways at Daly City and Burlington (which I know there are not, I've seen the job listings and job descriptions for the Avid development and engineering departments come and go on Avid's website. In those job descriptions, they actually tell you a lot about the structure of the departments and what is going on internally)... the fact remains that Global Logic's target business is not software programming, but software research, design and development. All you need to do is go to their web page and see this.

http://www.globallogic.com/ideation-services.html

We can agree to disagree. But over the past 4 years about 500~600 or so people have been let go from Daly city and Irwindale. And while some were marketing, tech support, training and marketing... you can't expect me to believe that you had 300 marketing people and 300 tech support people there when I know you had around 6~10 tech support in irwindale and between 10 and 20 in Daly City... and Digi had literally 3 or 4 people in training...

So out of the 600 people let go, roughly 35 were support and training for audio products. You really think I'm going to believe digidesign and M-Audio had 465~565 marketing specialists that they let go? You and I both know very few people from Avid division actually got let go... it was mainly Digidesign and M-Audio divisions that were let go.

If I can quote your website...

More than 70% of our employees use Avid products to make their own movies, music and more. This makes our mission more personal and real, and our work more meaningful and fun.

http://www.avid.com/US/careers

Are you willing to go on record to say that more than 70% of the staff at global logic uses avid products to make their own movies, music and more?

And if you have so many in the engineering dept already, then why all the job posting for software engineers, Sr Software Engineers, Principle Software engineers, Sr Software Developer, Hardware Engineers, Senior hardware engineers, etc on your website? All which have been posted in the last two months?

We can agree to disagree. But what is more misleading, you saying there is a large engineering and development staff for audio products, and then in the last 2 months Avid posts a bunch of job openings for engineers to work on their audio products or me saying the engineering dept for audio products is tiny to non-existent compared to what it once was? And most of the job listings I saw in the last two years were for program managers that specifically had experience in managing outsourced software development and had experience acting as liaison between the company and it's outsourcing contractor, being able to relay tech specs from marketing and product managers to the outsourced contractor... I'm glad to see Avid is finally starting to bring engineering staff in, but it's a shame because they had so many talented and specialized staff to begin with. If they hadn't let go of them all, they wouldn't be in need of them now.

Which brings me back to the overall theme of my first post. Avid sold the horse to pay for the carriage. And now they are in need of a horse and are trying to get one since you can't outsource your engine and expect to move forward successfully.

[Dave Lang]

thanks for the informative posts in spite of the criticism Derek.

[Carl Kolchak]

Originally Posted by O.G. Killa

We are now starting to see the repercussions of their "layoff, consolidate and outsource" plan that Gary Greenfield and Kevin Arnold implemented in 2008.

Wasn't he the kid in "The Wonder Years"?

I think you mean Kirk.

The thing that never gets explained is that every time there is a round of layoffs, we hear about 400 people going from here, and 200 people going from there. But we never hear when those people were employed, and how long their contracts were.

I can well believe that there was a need to bolster the engineering department for a 2-3 year period in the run up to the Mbox3 range, HD I/O, HD MADI, HD OMNI, HDX, HD Native, AAX, PT10.

Once the job is done and their contract is complete, it seems reasonable to expect a mass culling. And indeed this seemed to be the case when PT10 was finally released.

That may not be the case, and it could well be that Avid was cutting mostly long term staff loose to "save the company", after they had completed their current usefulness - but it could also be that Avid are bloody hopeless at communicating what's really going on, and averting a P.R. disaster????

[benherron.rrr]

Wow some very interesting and emotive thoughts have been layed down here, and it's nice to see how maturely they have been expressed.

I agree that 'pro' software should be made/developed by people who have experience in that field. It's easy to look at a brief and follow it, but I feel like the next level of quality comes from those who understand why certain things need doing.

One business that I feel really sets a bench mark is SE electronics, whether you like the gear they put out there or not. Their dedication to producing everything down to the mounts and cases in house is inspiring, and I can really see the extra mile, the extra passion in the mics I own, even the cheap ones. I know what a business says isn't always what it actually does. I have always loved SE electronics for saying "We just make less money", I feel like I am getting a product made for me not the accountant.

This is what I want to feel from Avid. Don't get me wrong, I love Pro Tools, even as a composer I can create without having to think about anything but being creative because the workflow is so intuitive, and when it comes to editing and mixing I can delve into the audio with the same sense of ease. While there is the big bug with freezes in 10 among others, I have never felt so secure with a DAW. However there is an underlying feeling that decisions were made and problems exist that wouldn't be let through the gates with a team of people who not only know how to write/develop software very well, but more importantly know exactly for what reason they are doing what they are doing.

Somebody made a point a couple of pages ago about widening the demographic from professional to consumer. In today's industry it is quite debatable that the consumer/home studio owner can be as professional as the project/commercial studio owner/worker. I think it is very important that Avid treats its customers no matter what reason they are using their software/hardware as professionals, a lot of us need the support especially when Avid's short comings begin to effect our own businesses and that is a BIG no no, In my opinion.

Keep up with the good work Avid, despite the grief we give you, deep down we know that what you have given us thus far has, for the most part been absolutely great. I am in no position to give you advice, but, take your eyes off the balance sheet and put them back on the product, us customers will be very grateful and in turn we will be happy to support you.

[Drew Mazurek]

Lots of good points here for sure.

Let me just say this:

It's VERY easy to "slam" a faceless corporation but if/when you encounter individual Avid employees, my experience is that, to a man/woman, they are always nice and helpful. This is just my experience, you may have had another. This always seems to get lost in threads like these.

[derFunkenstein]

Originally Posted by dmazurek

Lots of good points here for sure.

Let me just say this:

It's VERY easy to "slam" a faceless corporation but if/when you encounter individual Avid employees, my experience is that, to a man/woman, they are always nice and helpful. This is just my experience, you may have had another. This always seems to get lost in threads like these.

Yes, the gentleman I dealt with on the phone yesterday was very helpful and he recognized that he was forced to give me a rubbish answer. It's the folks making the decisions that need raked over the coals; the individual Avid employees have always been very helpful. It's important to distinguish.

[O.G. Killa]

Originally Posted by Carl Kolchak

I think you mean Kirk.

The thing that never gets explained is that every time there is a round of layoffs, we hear about 400 people going from here, and 200 people going from there. But we never hear when those people were employed, and how long their contracts were.

I can well believe that there was a need to bolster the engineering department for a 2-3 year period in the run up to the Mbox3 range, HD I/O, HD MADI, HD OMNI, HDX, HD Native, AAX, PT10.

Once the job is done and their contract is complete, it seems reasonable to expect a mass culling. And indeed this seemed to be the case when PT10 was finally released.

That may not be the case, and it could well be that Avid was cutting mostly long term staff loose to "save the company", after they had completed their current usefulness - but it could also be that Avid are bloody hopeless at communicating what's really going on, and averting a P.R. disaster????

You are correct, it was a typo.

I understand and agree with what you are saying. But contractors are usually not considered "layoffs" since they simply let the contract run out or pay off the contract in full. "Layoffs" are full time salaried employees. At least that was the case with Avid.