Why kick disappears in the mix?

[smcoptyltd]

When I’m working on a song, usually I have my sampler ASR 10 as a source of
drums and bass. It’s digitally connected to 888/24 and analog out to Mackie 1402 mixer where PT output is there and all my synths as well.

For a long time I was blaming my ASR for bad kicks and basses.

Usually, when kick is played from ASR via Mackie, is perfect. Bass is perfect too.

When I put digitally into PT 24 Mix+ via 888/24, both seems to killing the mix or rather
disappearing in it.

Initially I’ve blamed ASR 10 for it but other synths had the same problem.

Than I’ve read somewhere Nika’s comment that kicks he runs only analog whatever that term means.

Also I’ve read some comment that some engineers are using external digital console like
Tascam for mixing.

Can someone throw some light on the subject or provide some link?

Easy solution perhaps? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

TIA…

[s2n]

Maybe you have a cabling issue and your kick or bass is being recorded out-of-phase.

[jjungkurth]

Could it be that you have the same kick and bass sounds coming out of pro tools (with its latency) and the sampler simultaneously to the same mackie mixer (for monitoring I assume) and therefor they are canceling eachother out to some degree?

I also would tend to think that it's got something to do with phase. I've seen converters that flip the phase and don't tell you about it (your sampler's analog outs maybe?).

What Nika and others are talking about is just using Pro Tools as a recording device and bypassing its internal software mixer by giving each track a direct out to an external mix surface of some sort be it analog or digital. Many people do this because the summing on the Pro Tools mix bus tends to be pretty weak at times. Personally, I can't believe that it would be worse than a small Mackie if that's what you're hearing.

And has it occurred to you that any instrument has the capacity to be lost in the mix if you're not mixing them properly? Of course they're going to be clearer when you hear them alone.

[jjungkurth]

I just read the post again. If you're going to be using those synths and the sampler in your Pro Tools composition, you definately SHOULD NOT be hearing both the units' individual analog outs and the Pro Tools mix simultaneously. This is completely wrong and I bet it's the source of your problem, phase and/or incompetent levels from having all your sources doubled and delayed.

[smcoptyltd]

If you're going to be using those synths and the sampler in your Pro Tools composition, you definately SHOULD NOT be hearing both the units' individual analog outs and the Pro Tools mix simultaneously.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I'm ready to record, I'm pulling sliders down on Mackie. There is not cancellation issue there and not simultaneous playback of digital and analog signal.

I use PT for more than two years! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I wish I could mix out from Mackie sometimes because it sounds so good in analog.

The same thing happens if I'm trying to use a kick or bass from Supernova. Supernova does not have digital out so I use analog cables to 888/24.

Also, when I use kick from Giga sampler the same thing.

When played on Mackie, I can adjust kick and bass any way I like in the mix. When is in box, never the same and needs so much effort to sound reasonable but it will never sound as good as analog through Mackie.

Mixing seems to be totally different on PT than on Mackie.

On Mackie, when I’m pushing slider to far, is just to loud. On PT is never like that regardless volume of other tracks.

What was good on Mackie, is not good in PT and I have to use IQ, compressors to get that kick working in PT and… still is not the same.

It feels like big sounds like kick and bass taking to much bandwidth or digital space.

That’s the impression I do have anyway.

Cheers…

[DigiGeek]

You could be losing kick because of the Pro Tools "fold in effect"... you know, how everything seems to kind of fold in on itself and get lost in the mix somehow, despite how it sounded when in solo.

If I have to fathom a guess, I would put the blame squarely on the fixed bit processing, as I do not seem to have this problem in Logic or Nuendo. When I push a kick to +12 in nuendo it SOUNDs like +12 and when I put it back in the mix, it does not get lost like it does with PT. It seems so many of us are always fighting our traks in PT-- wish they would fix that....

[smcoptyltd]

You are spot on at it.

IMHO any big sound is loosing an impact when reach the track in PT.

Or I would say, maybe is more obvious with big bass or kick.

I understand that many people have made nice mixes in the box but... Charles Dye' mixes are not big basses or kicks!

I've read all his articles and that guy has helped me a lot. Still I can’t make a big juicy kick in my mix.

I'm going to try your idea in Nuendo, Cubase SX or Logic and compare some results.

I have few ideas… [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks for the hint...

[jho]

Yo Sm,

Try not recording the the kick thru the digitial but the kick thru the mackie like you are doing, and take a direct out or an eq'd send of that, recorded back into PT and see what kind of results you get. If it works you get the best of both worlds.

[woodywho]

Originally posted by jho:
Yo Sm,

Try not recording the the kick thru the digitial but the kick thru the mackie like you are doing, and take a direct out or an eq'd send of that, recorded back into PT and see what kind of results you get. If it works you get the best of both worlds.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree!!!

[digz]

Try layering 3 or 4 different kicks on top of each other. Also, try adding more top end frequencies (Above 5khz) to make the perception of the kick more apparent without filling up the mix too much.

You should also try a Stereo Width plugin on your Master Fader in ProTools, or on a Stereo Aux track that is fed by all your drums only (So only drum tracks get widening. I use the one with the Waves Gold Bundle- S1 Imager. This Stereo widenning helps simulate the way that large analog consoles two-bus summing matrixes work.

For Bass, try using some subtle distortion on it. You can copy your bass track, and distort one of the signals to layer with the original. Aural Exciter, Sans Amp, and Amp Farm are good choices.

You could also check into getting better A/D/A converters than 888 or at least purchase a better external wordclock generator.

Just a few hopefully helpful tips. Dan