Trading 7.3 TDM PCIX for Native - snag it, or don't fix it if it ain't broken?

[DLpres]

There have been plenty of "keep my TDM vs. HDX vs. Native" posts and I read through many of them... the truth is that different choices are right for different situations.

I'd appreciate your feedback on our situation:

• PT HD 7.3 on a G5, OSX 10.4.11
• TDM HD|3 PCI-X
• 192 I/O, sync, control|24
• Plugins are Waves Platinum & Restoration, Sonnox Oxford, and VSonics VMeters RTAS
• We have available underutilized Mac Pros

We do post-production for commercials, corporate, and TV. No musicians, just plenty of simple VO and some ADR. I'm running this by our mixer but AFAIK we never max out on voices. Our system surely gets the work done, it's more of a case of trading in your car vs. running it to the ground, plus we're starting to miss out on new plugins & features.

We think Native - now - is the right way for us, but before pulling the trigger I need to know that we'll be moving ahead and not stepping back.

1. Apparently the trade-in promo ends June 30th. That's my big if: is this the last chance to get upgrade/trade-in deals on TDM hardware or PT7?
2. It seems extra relevant since our Accel cards are PCI-X. Resale value is low and getting lower, and I can't do any sort of upgrade with them (A used Magma is at least $1500, and it looks like you can't even get upgrade pricing from v7, so it'll be a costly endeavor to get PT10 TDM.)
3. I suppose one drawback will be Waves... having to upgrade now to RTAS and soon again to AAX.
4. Trying to think ahead a couple of years, the control surface & I/O may be obsolete with v11. Am I gaining or losing anything in that regard by upgrading to 10 now or sitting on it?...
5. It's much harder for us to justify the extra $$ for HDX. Given our kind of work, do you think I'll be missing anything with Native, or creating problems I haven't had with TDM?
6. People mention the old PT's are doing just fine... but 7 vs 10 is getting pretty darn old, isn't it :)

[Jack Ruston UK]

Originally Posted by DLpres

ot stepping back.

1. Apparently the trade-in promo ends June 30th. That's my big if: is this the last chance to get upgrade/trade-in deals on TDM hardware or PT7?
2. It seems extra relevant since our Accel cards are PCI-X. Resale value is low and getting lower, and I can't do any sort of upgrade with them (A used Magma is at least $1500, and it looks like you can't even get upgrade pricing from v7, so it'll be a costly endeavor to get PT10 TDM.)
3. I suppose one drawback will be Waves... having to upgrade now to RTAS and soon again to AAX.
4. Trying to think ahead a couple of years, the control surface & I/O may be obsolete with v11. Am I gaining or losing anything in that regard by upgrading to 10 now or sitting on it?...
5. It's much harder for us to justify the extra $$ for HDX. Given our kind of work, do you think I'll be missing anything with Native, or creating problems I haven't had with TDM?
6. People mention the old PT's are doing just fine... but 7 vs 10 is getting pretty darn old, isn't it :)

1. It' s never the last chance for this sort of upgrade deal with Avid. There's always another scheme in the offing.

2. Yeah...the older cards are relatively worthless, but of course, as you rightly say, they do still work very well and do a job. But they restrict the rest of the system and what machine you can run.

3. You shouldn't have to upgrade any plug ins. Just install the full TDM versions on your new rig, choose the option to include RTAS and AS and your plug ins will all appear as normal.

4. Hard to say.

5. Whenever you change systems SOMETHING causes a problem. That's just the way of things. The tradeoff in this instance is VAST improvement in power and efficiency. If you're maxing out your TDM machine then the native one will wipe the floor with it in terms of power, by a huge margin. Also the difference between V9 software (which I'm still on) and V7 represents some concrete advantages in mixing. So the question you have to answer is...Am I maxing my system and / could I increase my revenue in some way with the extra features offered by later versions?

6. It depends what you're doing. I do find later versions faster for mixing. There are a couple nice little refinements. But V7 is still a good system.

I've really benefitted from my Native upgrade. I love it. But I was killing my TDM rig...constantly maxing it out, getting the chip juggling crashes and running very slowly...having to print things. With the native system it's just effortless. So for me it has been well worthwhile. It's much fussier in terms of the system setup and what plug ins are in the folder...But then I gather HDX is also a little bit niggly still. It's a decision only you can make, but it must start with the question 'What is limiting me about my current setup?' NOT 'Maybe I should upgrade because my upgrade option might change'

J

[ggegan]

HD Native is a great platform, but it's capabilities are dependent on the power of the computer. It works best with a Nehalem or later Mac Pro and 8 cores are better than 4, although for your purposes a single quad core may be plenty powerful.

HD Native running on a high end Mac Pro is going to be a major improvement over an HD3 PT7 system, especially when you consider it comes with an upgrade to PT9 and 10. I have no problem running sessions on my HD Native/Nehalem 8 core that are at the limit of TDM only processing on my HD6.

Regarding HDX, it's a powerful solution, but personally, I would wait to see if more AAX DSP plugins come on the market before jumping in. I doubt you will be missing anything by going HD Native, IMO it doesn't really make sense to go with HDX unless you need the power of an HDX2, because then it comes with a big advantage in that you can run massive sessions on a single computer. According to Avid, a single HDX card is the equivalent of somewhere between a TDM HD3 and HD5, so to my thinking, one HDX card doesn't seem like much of an advantage over HD Native. The only caveat is if you need to record overdubs while using plugins, then the HDX is likely going to be a better choice due to potential monitoring latency issues with HD Native.

I'm sure others may see things differently, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[The golfer]

It seems extra relevant since our Accel cards are PCI-X. Resale value is low and getting lower, and I can't do any sort of upgrade with them (A used Magma is at least $1500, and it looks like you can't even get upgrade pricing from v7, so it'll be a costly endeavor to get PT10 TDM.)

They are many options. For most HD native is the way to go. We demoed a native system for a week and found it very powerful. But we decided to go the HDX way because we thought the exchange price was worth it.

I believe you can easily get $1500 for your 3 pci-x cards. You could also exchange the core card for the native system and sell the two other cards.

If you prefer to stick with TDM because of the lack of dsp Plugins and low monitoring capabilities you could buy second hand and upgrade your system to an HD6 + PT10HD for around $3500. (This would include a used magma chassis (pe6r4-i), 3 more cards and a PT10 HD software).

[Bookerv12]

I have been messing with a native system.
Still running into a few problems.
I still use my "old" HD4 PCI tdm system for most of my work 95% of the time.
It never fails.
Bleeding edge is no longer interesting.
We are thinking about abandoning PT all together if the old system dies.
It just seems that if it's not just a hobby, it makes no sense.

(This coming from a former uber-fan)

[jeremyroberts]

there's another way to salvage your HD PCIx cards:

http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=324149

[RCN]

I was in the exact same situation, running HD3 on PT8 with an old G5 which by the way was a work horse for us, 7 yrs... I decided to keep my cards and get a magma, and a used Mac pro, u can find them on ebay cheap.. if you go this route u can upgrade to PT 10, I'm on PT8.1 and get everything that's current..

I made my decision after comparing a friends PT HDN and for what we do (mainly record bands) lower latency, power of tdm and rtas, it was no contest.. I still can use all my plugs, including many that I would have to GIVE UP by going HDN or HDX.. Further more with the magma I can add more accel cards at any time..

BTW, every plug-in co including Waves will still be supporting new tdm/rtas plugs for the future..

[DucoLax]

You can still use your existing Pro Tools HD PCI-X cards. If you have a MacPro Intel you can use the Magma Expansion system PE6R4-I unit.

Now, prior to using the PE6R4-I, make sure to check what rev is your Pro Tools core card. There's an issue with Pro Tools core card Rev. K.
You may need to replace or exchange that to a newer rev.

Here's a video on PE6R4-I and hot to install Pro Tools cards,
http://youtu.be/qBkgiUKIvqs

You can also find more information relating to Magma PE6R4-I and Pro Tools compatibility on http://expansionsystem.com/forum/