issues: HDX-2 (PT10) delay comp…. RTAS & hardware inserts

[MixerGuy]

Hi all

Long story short…. either I’m doing something wrong, or I have uncovered a bug in the latest version of PT 10.3.9 HD - Mac (tho I also had this issue in 10.3.7)

I am doing a complex mix… but where I am having trouble is:

audio playing before the playhead gets to the actual audio, by quite a bit (a very noticeable flam) but only on audio tracks that are assigned to my lead vocal stem mix buss.

My lead vocal path is:

at 44.1k, 24 bit
delay compensation: Max
playback engine: HDX-2
no virtual instruments anywhere.
not recording any audio
4 HDio interfaces, all on loop-sync.

Lead vocal mono audio track - out a buss to a mono AUX

on the lead vocal AUX there are the following inserts:
FabFilter Pro-DS de-esser (native AAX, not available as AAX DSP)
hardware insert (Distressor - hardware)
FabFilter Pro-C compressor (native AAX, not available as AAX DSP)
hardware insert (another analog compressor)

It took a while to get the vocal chain set… and this is the sound we want. No, I really do NOT want to use other plugins, or not use hardware inserts… the setup above sounds great.

The lead vocal AUX’s output is assigned to the “stereo Lead Vocal Buss” - and that gets recorded on it’s own audio track, back in the same PT rig.

on the lead vocal AUX there are 2 sends: one to a hardware reverb (using a send to a buss, and the hardware reverb is an insert on a stereo aux in for the reverb)
and one to a FabFilter delay - again a send to a buss into an Aux return….. with the FabFilter delay delay inserted on the Aux return just for that delay.
These auxes’s outputs are both assigned to the “stereo Lead Vocal Buss”.

This way I have the control I need for automating things… and I get the sound we want.

However - even though the Delay Comp does NOT indicate “red” or over on ANY audio track or any AUX…. I still get the little red global DLY red trouble indication up in the central display near the main counter.

and… any audio assigned to the mono vocal buss, or the stereo vocal buss PLAYES BACK AHEAD OF WHEN IT SHOULD, and It plays back BEFORE THE PLAYHEAD GETS TO IT.

Never seen this…. then again, never used this exact routing in a session.

I have tried various things, and nothing is clearly the problem.

So…. is my issue that I’m going AAXnative -> hardware insert -> AAXnative -> hardware insert in a row, on the mono vocal aux?

I tried it without the hardware inserts - still out of sync. I tried it without the plugins - still bad….

any alternate workflows that might work better?

Thanks!!

[albee1952]

2 questions; have you entered the correct time(manually) for the hardware insert latency? And, can you put all the same plugins on the AUDIO track(instead of busing to an AUX and inserting there)? I ask that because I believe there is an issue with ADC on buses(so if you skip the bus, maybe things will be properly corrected)

[MixerGuy]

Originally Posted by albee1952

2 questions; have you entered the correct time(manually) for the hardware insert latency? And, can you put all the same plugins on the AUDIO track(instead of busing to an AUX and inserting there)? I ask that because I believe there is an issue with ADC on buses(so if you skip the bus, maybe things will be properly corrected)

Thanks for the reply Albee.

Ok so pardon my ignorance but I thought with hardware inserts - when done on an aux, with matching inputs and outputs - delay comp just fixed it?

Never has to insert correct times anywhere. Never.
Avid HDio interfaces.

And ... Hmmmmm yeah at this time it might be possible to put the 2 plugins and 2 inserts on the actual lead vocal AUDIO track.... I had previously wanted to keep the ability to ride a fader BEFORE the analog compressors (don't like clip gain for gains above zero) but perhaps I could do without that ability.... Hmmmmmm must try this.

Let me know about "insert correct times"

[MixerGuy]

any other suggestions?

[albee1952]

Okay, I am a bit "green" on the hardware ADC as I simply have not used it, but, in the IO setup screen, the last tab is where the user puts in the proper offset for a round trip(out to hardware and back in, including conversion latency). How you get that number requires a bit of analysis. This can be done by taking any audio track, feed its output to the hardware device you have, feed the hardware device to a new audio track and record it(only need a few seconds). Then, zoom in and measure the offset between the original audio and the audio from the hardware return. Remember that hardware inserts can have a different amount of latency, depending on the hardware(although its safe to assume that any all-analog piece will have zero latency on its own) and conversion latency will vary according to sample rate.

Hopefully, someone with more experience will chime in here in case I am off the mark

Re CLIP GAIN, define "gains above zero" as I am not following. I use CLIP GAIN all the time to level a track before the compressors(very similar to riding the fader).

[MixerGuy]

Originally Posted by albee1952

Okay, I am a bit "green" on the hardware ADC as I simply have not used it, but, in the IO setup screen, the last tab is where the user puts in the proper offset for a round trip(out to hardware and back in, including conversion latency). How you get that number requires a bit of analysis. This can be done by taking any audio track, feed its output to the hardware device you have, feed the hardware device to a new audio track and record it(only need a few seconds). Then, zoom in and measure the offset between the original audio and the audio from the hardware return. Remember that hardware inserts can have a different amount of latency, depending on the hardware(although its safe to assume that any all-analog piece will have zero latency on its own) and conversion latency will vary according to sample rate.

Hopefully, someone with more experience will chime in here in case I am off the mark

....

The tab in the IO setup can remain at zero, as I am not using 3rd party converters.

i am positive on this.

HD + HDX + HDio = no #'s there.

[MixerGuy]

what I learned, researching on the internet - about my issues - and how to FIX them:

I had TWO problems. Both fixed.

Fix #1:

Bottom line (and the solution to #1) - I can't have AAX native plugin -> hardware insert -> AAX native plugin -> hardware insert.

The system can't cope, no matter what I do, UNLESS i have my buffer at 128 or similar.

Not sure how the rig would handle that, with a huge session.

so

It really has to be AAX native plugins, all in a row, then hardware insert last, and nothing after that

but as a note - even with buffer at 128…. timing is better with AAX native plugs ALWAYS before a hardware insert.

and

Fix for problem #2

The Fab Timeless2 AAX native delay (not available DSP version) plugin - It was also causing flaming weirdness when it was "in the picture"

(a send from the vocal track goes to an aux return, with the Timeless2 inserted on that aux…. seems to be to DISABLE delay compensation on that aux return.


however when I Ctrl Apple clicked on the dly number in the delay comp window of that plugin's aux - the flam went away!!! Wow! (this is forcing the delay compensation to turn OFF - turning grey)

that seemed to fix the last of my timing problems.

[nst7]

Albee, just to mention, All HD systems, including TDM, HDX, and HD Native, automatically compensate for hardware inserts just as if they were plugins. But this is assuming you are using Avid interfaces. It's a unique feature to the HD systems. Since you are now the proud owner of an HD Native system, it's good to know. Note that I believe the Lynx Auroras will also be compensated as well in this scenario, because they have the same converter latency as the Avid interfaces. Other HD compatible ones, like the Apogee Symphony, would have to be done the old school way.

[albee1952]

That's good news. I will have to start experimenting when I get more hardware to play with.