Undipped music stem

[dalonso66]

I'm trying to figure out a way to accommodate Discovery's Undipped Stems. I usually have an aux set up as a DME dipper to dip under narration. Discovery wants undipped music and undipped fx as if dialog or narration weren't present. Do you guys do all of your dipping of music and effects exclusively on Aux Tracks then take a pre fader send to an undipped bus? Of course if these 2 stems don't need to retain a relative balance to the full mix (i.e flattened for promo purposes) then it won't be hard. I'm currently awaiting some clarification from Discovery.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

How odd of them. It makes no sense as the stems won't add up to the M&E - but hey.
Give them what they want. You can either do it the way you suggested, or have an aux that does the music/FX dip under the sync, which has a pre fade o/p for the stem record. Make sure you only dip the M&E mix under the VO (Narr), otherwise you will be delivering a dipped M&E.
You will have to be careful to dip the right thing at the right time.

[noiseboyuk]

Mini hijack - I was on the viewer end of undipped music stems going wrong the other day. Favourite programme ever - Mythbusters - is usually beautifully dubbed. But I saw one on Discovery UK a few weeks ago which had gone horribly wrong. The UK VO was fine - music dipping as normal - but everything else was a disaster. After a while I figured out that they must have been working with music that had bypassed all automation completely. You couldn't really hear any of the presenters as the music stayed at full whack...

It's the only one I've ever seen (heard) like that though. Usually the credit is to Mark Tanner sound who is in Sydney I believe, but iirc this one was a different credit.

[TVPostSound]

Try making an undipped, when your music comes from the offline video editor with cut clip/crossfade at cut/clip gain down under dialogue.
Its a Media Composer way of dipping music.
I actually use that as a starting reference, as the EP has approved the rough music level.
So my dips are minimal, and mostly board fades between music cuts.

[dalonso66]

Originally Posted by MIKEROPHONICS

How odd of them. It makes no sense as the stems won't add up to the M&E - but hey.
Give them what they want. You can either do it the way you suggested, or have an aux that does the music/FX dip under the sync, which has a pre fade o/p for the stem record. Make sure you only dip the M&E mix under the VO (Narr), otherwise you will be delivering a dipped M&E.
You will have to be careful to dip the right thing at the right time.

Yeah, something tells me the music and effects stems as undipped are not supposed to retain relationship to each other or the full mix balance...

[dalonso66]

Even doing it that way still requires some careful reworking or counter-dipping of the DME dipper, but yes, I get it.

[wheresmyfroggy]

Originally Posted by dalonso66

I'm trying to figure out a way to accommodate Discovery's Undipped Stems. I usually have an aux set up as a DME dipper to dip under narration. Discovery wants undipped music and undipped fx as if dialog or narration weren't present. Do you guys do all of your dipping of music and effects exclusively on Aux Tracks then take a pre fader send to an undipped bus? Of course if these 2 stems don't need to retain a relative balance to the full mix (i.e flattened for promo purposes) then it won't be hard. I'm currently awaiting some clarification from Discovery.

We are currently having this discussion at work, with regard to the extra time required to mix a flat music/fx then dip that under dial, then make sure that the integrity of that mix is kept when making changes and tweaks further down the line (or if the mix is under time constraints, mix as normal and run through and 'undip' after final client review). I know it depends a lot on the individual project, but has there been any thought to how much extra work this is and whether it is justifiable to make the client aware and pass on the cost?

The way I see it, to be of any use to facilities that inherit these stems for reversioning, the stems have to be 'mixed' and not just flat prefader level, otherwise fx/atmos etc won't be at appropriate relative levels and music crossovers wont work. So it can't be just an automatic process, there has to be thought and attention paid to it.

[dalonso66]

Yes, The M&E mix retains it's relative balance. I spoke to a former mixer at Discovery and this was his reply:

"The way we set this up internally at Discovery, and how they continue to do it is like this:

Music is leveled on the music tracks (-24ish), but not mixed on the music tracks. All music mixing is on the music & dip busses.

Narration Bus feeds Full Mix
Dialog Bus feeds Dip Bus
FX Bus feeds Dip Bus
Music Bus feeds Dip Bus
Dip Bus feeds Full Mix

So, anytime you're mixing against dialog only, you'll be mixing your FX & Music on the FX & Music bus. When VO comes in, the FX and Music busses go to unity and then you pull the Dip bus down under VO. They send a pre-fader from the Dip bus to create the MDE. This allows for everything to happen in a single pass."

[fork-media]

really struggling on the rationale in this one! its the first time in 20 years I ever been asked to mix sync sound and VO together in mono - and they dot want seperate either?!!

this is a history channel spec sheet I just got given...

Channel 1 Full Mix; Stereo Left
Channel 2 Full Mix; Stereo Right
Channel 3 M&E; Stereo Left (no dialogue, no VO/narration)
Channel 4 M&E; Stereo Right (no dialogue, no VO/narration)
channel 5 VO/Narration and interview/location dialogues;
channel 6 Mono Effects and Ambience/B-roll Audio; Mono

channel 7 Stereo Music & Effects & Dialogue Left (no VO/narration)
Channel 8 Stereo Music & Effects & Dialogue Right (no VO/narration)
channel 9 Stereo Music Left (undipped with clean fades)
channel 10 Stereo Music Right (undipped with clean fades)


if I got sent this to reversion - I think I would be upset! The M+E is basically useless? not an effect driven show,, and they want nat sound mixed with the VO?

I guess ch 7/8 is that one ?

actually the few SFX that are in - are stereo..

way prefer have 3 seperate D M E to do a reversion..

of course the spec sheet didnt appear til after I had basically mixed the show..

[MIKEROPHONICS]

But you are still providing a dipped music stem if you do that. Having said that, I think this undipped music stem is sheer nonsense and comes from a complete lack of understanding of how people reversion.