A Tale of Two MIDIs...

[RegisWhite]

Hi to all;

I've searched this forum, Google-searched, looked everywhere I can think to look, and I've not seen anything quite like what I'm experiencing. Here's the setup:

-Pro Tools 11 running through a 2009 Mac Pro (all else appears to be just fine aside from what I'm about to describe)
-M-Audio ProFire 2626 (Not really used in context, but I know that thoroughness is key, here)
-MOTU MIDI Express XT interface
-Roland R-70 drum machine (VERY IMPORTANT...)
-Alesis DM10 drum module/DM10 Studio Kit drum triggers (ALSO VERY IMPORTANT)

There is other gear, but none that really matters for the purpose at hand.

All I want to do is record MIDI information onto an instrument track--drums, in this case, triggered by the drum pads with my Alesis DM 10 module--and then have that information played back *through* the DM 10, utilizing its onboard sounds. Here is where it gets strange:

1. I absolutely have my Instrument track set up correctly; I've done this many times before, and know about setting up the MIDI input, the MIDI output, etc., on the Instrument track. The "MIDI Thru" function on Pro Tools is set correctly, also.

2. I know that the MIDI data is *recording* correctly; I can hear the sounds when I play them on the recording pass using my pad triggers, and they clearly show up on the "piano roll" on my Instrument track. The notes are definitely, 100% there.

3. I *also* know that the data is there (belt and suspenders...) because, when I changed the MIDI routing to go out of the Instrument track, to my old faithful Roland R-70 (via my MIDI Express XT interface) instead of back to the DM 10, it (the R-70) played the data without a problem. (Granted, they were "wrong" sounds, but that's only because I didn't MIDI-map everything)

4. I know that my DM 10 is set up fundamentally correctly, because, if I go MIDI out of my old R-70 to MIDI in on the DM 10 and play a song or pattern from the R-70, it plays!

5. Now, here's the really weird part, as far as I'm concerned: I tried *everything*. I used a different USB/MIDI cable from the DM to my Mac Pro's USB jack; I switched to a different USB jack; I used a 5 pin DIN MIDI cable *instead* of a USB/MIDI connection, just trying to troubleshoot the hell out of everything. I adjusted every possible MIDI parameter on the drum module, and triple-checked the Instrument track's MIDI setup. The only way I can get the DM 10 to faithfully reproduce what I've played into the Instrument track is to go "MIDI out" of my MIDI interface to "MIDI in" on the old R-70, and then "MIDI Thru" of the R-70 to "MIDI in" on the DM 10! Isn't that weird? The Instrument track's MIDI output has to be set to "R-70," and not "DM 10," of course. The MIDI data goes directly to the R-70, then "thru" the R-70, into the DM 10, in other words.

So what on earth is the R-70's MIDI Thru "imparting" to my MIDI data signal that allows the DM10 to "read" the incoming MIDI data when patched through the R-70, but it won't read it directly from the Pro Tools instrument track via the Mac's USB jack, OR a 5 pin MIDI cable via my MIDI Express XT interface? My DM 10 can talk to Pro Tools, but the only way I can get Pro Tools to talk back to my DM 10 is if I use the R-70 as a "translator"!

I've worked with MIDI since the late 1980s, and I've not seen anything as peculiar as this. I really want to get the R-70 out of that "mediator" situation; it's inconvenient, and, simply, shouldn't have to be there! If anyone has any insight, I'd sure appreciate it. If there are any details I've left out, or questions, please feel free to ask--I'll be glad to do whatever I possibly can to fix this. I apologize for the length of the post, and hope I described things clearly. It's so odd, that it's hard to know how to describe, honestly.

Thanks in advance for your help!

RW

[PTPhillip]

Have you already checked in Audio MIDI Setup to make sure that the device corresponding to the DM-10 has both an input and an output "patched"? Also, in the DM-10 device properties, is it set to both send and receive on all channels? If both of those are set up, does your instrument track's Midi output channel match the DM-10's specified "receive" channel?

[RegisWhite]

Hi, Phillip;

Great questions. Yes, everything looks fine in Audio MIDI Setup; the DM10 shows up (I had to name it "DM10" of course; it started out as just "MIDI Device," or whatever the default name is), and it's definitely sending MIDI to the PT instrument track. I didn't drag-and-drop any "virtual MIDI cables", because, when it's connected via USB MIDI, there should be no need, isn't that correct? It's communicating directly via the USB port on the Mac, is my understanding. Please do let me know if I'm off base on that!

As far as MIDI channel settings, I've done it both ways--set the DM10 to send/receive on all MIDI channels, and also on just one channel. I tried ch 10, ch 1, even some random channels, making sure to "align" my PT instrument track "MIDI out" and the DM10 "MIDI in" to the same channel.

I'm at such a loss as to why it works with the R-70 as the go-between. As an instrument repairperson, I know, no matter what the problem is, question 1 is always "Did you plug it in?" and question 2 is "Did you turn it on..?" so I'm betting it's something simple that'll make me feel like a dunce when I find out what!

Thanks so much for the suggestions; I'll keep plugging away at it...

RW

[tonwurm]

What happens if you connect the midi-cable that´s connected to the midi-in on the r-70, to the midi-in of the dm10 and (of course) select in PT the track´s midi-out to the r-70 ? I´m sure you tried that...

[RegisWhite]

Hi, tonwurm;

You're right--I did try that, thinking it might be a bad USB cable or socket, and nothing happened . Everything that is "normal 5 pin MIDI" routes through my MOTU interface, by the way, and it seems to be fine. Totally odd... I'm going down later to re-try things, and will post if I have any success! Thanks for the suggestion....

RW

[RegisWhite]

Hello to all;

If anyone out there is interested, I seem to have found the fix for the odd troubles I was experiencing. I tried using just two plain old 5 pin MIDI cables, running through my Midi Express XT MIDI interface, and that appears to be working flawlessly.

I'm not sure why; the USB MIDI hookup was, in essence, non-functional for me. Going back to regular MIDI is what it took. So far, it's entirely re-producable, which, for me, means that I can take anything old that I did when it *wasn't* working, re-route the MIDI signal through the proper ports, and it plays back consistently.

One thing I did notice--when USB MIDI was hooked up, and I opened the device in Audio MIDI Setup, I had far fewer options than for the devices connected the old fashioned way. For example, my peripherals connected via 5 pin cables, when I double click on their icon, give me the ability to select what channel(s) I want to use to send and receive, whether or not I want to send or receive MIDI clock data, and a couple of other things; the double-clicked icon when using USB MIDI did not offer me any of those options. Whether or not that was the secret, I don't know, nor do I know why a USB MIDI hookup *wouldn't* give me those options, but I don't care, as long as it keeps working.

Thanks for the feedback; it's good to have this fixed...

RW

[musicman691]

Regis:
You've found out the hard way that computer systems don't like mixed MIDI paths. Either all USB or all 5 pin DIN connectors. Also what you may not have configured right in switching things about is on hardware that can use either USB or 5 pin DIN MIDI there's always a choice to be made of which to use. You can't use both paths at the same time. And sometimes USB MIDI just doesn't work like it should. Not to mention that some hardware needs special drivers to run USB MIDI - my Yamaha Motif 7 keyboard is like that.

[RegisWhite]

Thanks for the feedback, musicman/Jack!

Sometimes it's good to go with what you know. It seems counter-intuitive--that having one cable go in TO an interface, OUT to your computer, run around in Pro Tools, then go back OUT of your computer, INTO your interface, back down yet ANOTHER cable, and, finally back to where it began life, would be better and more stable than one handy-dandy USB cable, and yet, here we are...

MIDI has been around since, what? About 1983? Maybe good old 5 pin MIDI is like an iron skillet: there are lots fancier ways to cook your dinner, but most likely none better...

RW