Noticable improvement in stability PCI -> PCIe?

[Jsalam112]

How are you finding the move to PCIe slot machines or intel based Macs in general as far as stability is concerned?


I currently have:
HD3 Accel PCI system
dual 1.8 G5 with 3 gig ram
PT TDM 7.2cs1
Mac OS 10.4.8
additional internal hard drive for native instruments

My system has been a little more unstable since moving to PT 7.X
Frequent crashes. Mostly spinning wheel then app close. Occassionally, kernel panics.
Especially when using:
native instruments i.e. Ivory
RTAS plugs i.e. Colortone Pro.
Although I can't claim these problems occur only when using the above.

Wondering if it's it time to bite the bullet and make the switch. Have you noticed better, equal or less stability in the PCIe intel world?

[Mark Ziebarth]

Hi,
I am using a HD3 rig on PCIe basis and it is rock solid. But I have to admit that I only use very few virtual instruments on the Pro Tools machine. I mainly use Logic Pro for MIDI and software instruments and record the audio into Pro Tools...
My experience is that mainly plug-ins (especially VIs) cause the applications to crash (in my setup only Logic crashes randomly). I had a problem with TC Electronics MD3 which randomly crashed Pro Tools when I closed the plug-in window. But TC send me a new version of the plug which works rock solid. The only problem I had with Pro Tools 7.1 itself was a "bounce to movie" bug. But they fixed it with the latest version of 7.1. This bug never crashed the application but didn't make a proper movie...
I didn't have a HD rig on PCI basis but a Mix and it works as good as the PCIe HD rig.
I don't think problems are caused by the PCI or PCIe bus.

Kind regards

Mark

[Jsalam112]

Thanks for the reply Mark.

I'm not really sure where the occassional instability lies. Kernel panics which are typically associated with hardware problems are a relatively new experience for me. There are fewer kernel panics now then when they first started a year and half ago. This leads me to believe it may be more related to the various releases of Pro Tools over the past year or so. Not sure. Since Digidesign wants a few grand to switch from PCI to PCIe I figured I'd inquire before making that decision. If there's a better chance for greater stability then I might consider the move to PCIe now. If there's really no difference in performance or stability I may wait until Didgidesign releases new cards down the road.
I do have fewer kernel panics now but the system does crash more seemingly around virtual instruments and maybe even some RTAS plugs. Thought here is perhaps a new machine might be more appropriate. New machine means PCIe crossgrade.
Should be mentioned that when I purchased Battery, BFD, Ivory, Atmosphere and DKFH I did install a second internal hard drive specically and eclusively for virtual instruments.

[Lee Blaske]

My system has been a little more unstable since moving to PT 7.X
Frequent crashes. Mostly spinning wheel then app close. Occassionally, kernel panics.
Especially when using:
native instruments i.e. Ivory
RTAS plugs i.e. Colortone Pro.
Although I can't claim these problems occur only when using the above.

Wondering if it's it time to bite the bullet and make the switch. Have you noticed better, equal or less stability in the PCIe intel world?

The architecture of the PCIe cards is essentially the same. You're just getting a card with a PCIe card interface. Keep in mind that if you ever want to move to an expanded system, you can't do it with PCIe cards. When you make the move to an Intel machine, you might want to get the Digidesign chassis with the PCIe host card.

If you're going to get into heavy usage of processor intensive instrument plug-ins, you'd be far better off setting up a second powerful computer (Mac or PC), and then running all your plug-ins in that rig within a shell application (like NI's KORE). RTAS isn't the best format for samppler/instrument plug-ins (it doesn't make use of OSX's kernel level audio and MIDI). With all your processor intensive plug-ins on a second machine, your PT rig will be much more stable. You could also build some templates for your second machine that would get you up and running quickly. On top of that, setting up the second machine would probably be cheaper than a switch to PCIe PT cards.

Distributing the work load between multiple machines will definitely make for a more rock solid situation.

Lee Blaske

[Avid]

My system has been a little more unstable since moving to PT 7.X
Frequent crashes. Mostly spinning wheel then app close. Occassionally, kernel panics.
Especially when using:
native instruments i.e. Ivory
RTAS plugs i.e. Colortone Pro.

This sounds like one or more of your installed plug-ins may not be fully compatible with the Pro Tools 7 RTAS format. According to the TritoneDigital website, ColorTone-Pro is not actually a native RTAS plug-in, but uses Pluggo Runtime:

Q: What is Pluggo Runtime and why do I have to install it? Why do you guys use it?

A: Pluggo Runtime is a free set of extensions that allow our plugins to be automatically compatible with RTAS, VST and AU host programs.

You should try removing any plug-ins that you are not sure are compatible with Pro Tools 7 from your plug-ins folder entirely and see if that changes anything as far as stability.

See the "Pro Tools 7 Plug-in and Software Compatibility" sticky topic on the TDM Mac forum for more information.

[Jsalam112]

The architecture of the PCIe cards is essentially the same. You're just getting a card with a PCIe card interface. Keep in mind that if you ever want to move to an expanded system, you can't do it with PCIe cards. When you make the move to an Intel machine, you might want to get the Digidesign chassis with the PCIe host card.

If you're going to get into heavy usage of processor intensive instrument plug-ins, you'd be far better off setting up a second powerful computer (Mac or PC), and then running all your plug-ins in that rig within a shell application (like NI's KORE). RTAS isn't the best format for samppler/instrument plug-ins (it doesn't make use of OSX's kernel level audio and MIDI). With all your processor intensive plug-ins on a second machine, your PT rig will be much more stable. You could also build some templates for your second machine that would get you up and running quickly. On top of that, setting up the second machine would probably be cheaper than a switch to PCIe PT cards.

Distributing the work load between multiple machines will definitely make for a more rock solid situation.

Lee Blaske

[/QUOTE]Hey guys, Thanks for the response.
Lee, interesting concept running a second computer. Could you explain how I might go about interfacing/incorporating/locking up the 2 computers with pro Tools as my master in one of the machines.

[Lee Blaske]

Lee, interesting concept running a second computer. Could you explain how I might go about interfacing/incorporating/locking up the 2 computers with pro Tools as my master in one of the machines.

What you'd be doing is using the second computer as a platform for running all your sampler, synth and virtual instrument plug-ins (and possibly some processing for those plug-ins). So, there's not "locking up" to worry about. You'd install a shell application in the second Mac/PC such as Native Instrument's KORE, or Plogue-Bidule, or V-Stack (although V-Stack is discontinued, and not a wise purchase). The shell is simply an environment for instanciating, mixing, controlling, and routing. Shells like KORE are quite easy to use.

Essentially what you're doing is running the second computer as a big, dedicated sampler/synth/virtual instrument. You could run the second computer with a MIDI interface on your PT side and a MIDI interface on the second computer side. Or, you could use a MIDI over LAN (local area network) solution that would eliminate the need for the MIDI interfaces. It's best to route the audio back via ADAT light pipe, so you'd use some sort of audio interface PCI card or FireWire interface on the second computer side, and that would route back into your Digidesign interface (192, etc.). There are a lot of ADAT audio interface card options. I've been using RME HDSP 9652's with good success and low latency in some external PC's. This card would probably work well in a PCI Mac. There are a lot of options out there.

The really nice thing about doing things this way is that it frees you from worrying about a lot of incompatibility issues.

Lee Blaske

[Jsalam112]

Thanks Lee.
Might have something here
I guess I have some home work to do.

Perhaps I can keep my current G5 soley for Pro Tools, buy a more powerful new Mac Pro, forget the PCIe upgrade, install Kore and my virtual instruments (at least those compatible at this point) in the new Mac and link via MIDI.
I'll research possibilities.

Cheers.
Jim