Let's clear the air, folks...

[25ghosts]

Originally Posted by Benoni

Nope, that is factually, and philosophically incorrect. Whether or not someone else thinks the cost/value ratio is adequate or not, has no reflection to someones proclaimation of the inherent worth of a product.

For example, say someone else buys that $3,000 loaf of bread.

Does that all the sudden make it worth $3,000 to everyone?

Of course not. When someone says, "That loaf of bread is not worth $3,000"

They are not saying "to me" they are saying the product intrinsically is not worth the amount, and if anyone buys it, they have overspent.

You are speaking of someone who says that the $3,000 loaf is worth it. And they are not saying "for me" they are saying the loaf is intrinsically worth that amount, and if you do not buy it, you are cheap/missing out, ect...

Neither persons decision negates the conclusion of the other. The initial inner decision becomes an outward projection of worth.

You are mixing issues of actions, and proclamations.

Although I suspect you were talking in a general sense. Which is valid, I just disagree with the philosophical issues that affects the halo of the core issue. Its not as simple as just throwing a 'for you' at the end with no definition of what is meant.

You are correct 100% but only if people would indeed adhere to the
meaning of words while exclaiming their emotions/opinions.

'Not worth it' - in 99% of all exclamations is based on subjectiveness.
Thus a 'to me' is INDEED hidden in there, only not exclaimed.

'Not worth it' deliberately proclaimed in objectiveness would suggest that 'to me' is not at all to be found in the phrase.

I think 99% of all "PT 10 aint worth it" posted here on the DUCk - should be having having 'to me' tailing their exclamation.

Based on my knowledge about DAWs today, if I imagine having no DAW at my disposal having to buy one today and it should meet my expectations..

I would rather pay $5000 for Protools 10 Software than $399 for Presonus Studio One. Latter, TO ME, would be wasting $399.
AS the DAW certainly does NOT meet my expectations (concept is nice though and perhaps in 2 years they'll be there). $5000 would be a lot of money to me, regardless of buying a TV, Chair or Software.
BUT IT WOULD solve a problem for me.. And thus TO ME - it would be well worth the money. When asked if I'd really think its worth that much, i'd go yeahhh. And in the heat of the moment I would probably think
about adding "TO ME"

[DJ Hellfire]

Originally Posted by Chris Lambrechts

LOL ... exactly !!!

That said ... it's not funny to make fun of people's spelling errors on the internet even if the one in case did put a smile on my face as well ... thanks for that. Let's remember though that a lot of people contributing here are non native english speakers ... including myself. It remains even an important factor as to why so many remain on the background and unheard.

Chris

Nah man. I wasn't poking fun at you. It seemed to me that you were saying I was the one who started saying people are wasting my time or that I was the one trying to dismiss people's opinions. That's not that case. I'm just calling it how I see it.

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by Ant B

I'm with you all the way until you say "chances are you will by (buy) the $2 loaf and complain about the price of your favorite brand"

This is where your statement veers from the reality of this situation.

Perception is reality. Reality is the truth for each individual. Truth is universal.

In other words, while each person does decide for themselves, that action also is inferred as universally true for everyone, otherwise there is no conviction nor reason to believe you are right if you also believe everyone else is also right. Thats the core. Yes there are situations and mitigating factors, but I am talking about the core issue.

Originally Posted by Ant B

I would think nothing odd of consumers upset with the pricing/featureset buying the software they think is priced right for the features that they want, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is there's a $2 loaf that people are upholding as "what the $3000 loaf should have been all along" and yet - you're complaining about the $3000 loaf and not buying the $2 loaf ---- and then wondering why the $3000 loaf company thinks they can charge more than $2.

No, you are talking cross purposes. Maybe some are "wondering" and some are "thinking why can a company charge so much", thats not my issue.

Avid can charge what ever it wants, they have every right to do so. I have every right to say the product is not worth it or to agree with Avid and purchase it.

Originally Posted by Ant B

It's pretty obvious why that is, from where I'm standing (sitting).

And your conclusion is.....?

Originally Posted by Ant B

It seems like there's this thought that "protools is my favorite" and "protools should be inexpensive" and that those two thoughts/ideas are part of a universal truth that has been violated.

Can you expound on the "universal truth"?

I assume you mean wanting a product for as little as possible.

Where is the "violation"

And what do you mean by "should be"? are you implying "can"? Or an entitled attitude? Or a general "want".

Originally Posted by Ant B

I have only been in the protools realm since 6.9 but if there's one word I never would associate with my experience to date it is "inexpensive"

Nor would I. However, there are distinctions between inexpensive, expensive, quality, perception, and intrinsic value.

Pro Tools HD10 is a $999 update, I think we all agree that is expensive, however if the price was $12,000 - we would also agree that it is expensive. So there is a range to what is really meant by "expensive".

[Max Gutnik]

This is a very entertaining thread. Thanks for the good read. I love the part about intrinsic value, as if supply and demand did not dictate the value of everything.

At any rate, I think there are great points on both sides of the debate, but people should remember that Avid, like any other business, prices things based on the need/desire to obtain a return on their investment.

One of the flaws in comparing HD software upgrades to other consumer level software upgrades is the total addressable market (TAM). Someone mentioned "making millions on .99 cent software..." in this case the TAM would have to be millions upon millions of potential customers. Pro Tools HD has a much smaller, much more finite TAM.

We know how many people historically upgrade their HD software. We know historically how many people upgrade their hardware. We also saw the impact of opening Pro Tools software and learned a lot about what that means. All of the above is taken into account, along with the work and investment that goes into the release to determine the price.

Supply and demand ultimately determine value. Avid has a percieved value for the things we make, and either the market agrees and buys it or not.

We hope that professionals that use Pro Tools to make a living who try 10 equate the time savings and quality of life improvements in dollars and cents. Many customers who have already purchased it have told us as much. To them, it was worth it and they are very happy.

We hope that customers see the value in being on a program like Standard Support, because it helps us keep costs down and provide better service. I was glad we were able to offer this to all Pro Tools HD 9 customers through the end of the year. I have also taken the feedback from HD 8 customers back to Avid, to make sure their voices are heard.

Time will tell, but what everyone should understand is that the main motivation for me and my team who design Pro Tools, the engineers and testers that develop it and the folks in the field, on the phones and on the web who support all of our customers is to make great products and help make amazing music, films, tv shows etc. That's what gets us up in the morning. The rest of this is about enabling us to do that, and hopefully we make the right decisions that allow us to continue to do so.

[Keybeeetsss]

#CremeFraiche

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

You are correct 100% but only if people would indeed adhere to the
meaning of words while exclaiming their emotions/opinions.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

'Not worth it' - in 99% of all exclamations is based on subjectiveness.
Thus a 'to me' is INDEED hidden in there, only not exclaimed.

Well... is not every decision, thought, action, at least some what subjective.
Is the human brain even capable of a truly objective thought?

However, that in no way removes from the individual, and in effect everyone else from the conclusion we come to.(since our faculties are all we have to rely on and base our whole understanding on)

This of course assumes the person saying "Not worth it" truly means "Not worth it" and not "I don't have the money"

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

'Not worth it' deliberately proclaimed in objectiveness would suggest that 'to me' is not at all to be found in the phrase.

I think 99% of all "PT 10 aint worth it" posted here on the DUCk - should be having having 'to me' tailing their exclamation.

Possibly. It matters what is meant by "not worth it" and "to me"

Originally Posted by 25ghosts

Based on my knowledge about DAWs today, if I imagine having no DAW at my disposal having to buy one today and it should meet my expectations..

I would rather pay $5000 for Protools 10 Software than $399 for Presonus Studio One. Latter, TO ME, would be wasting $399.
AS the DAW certainly does NOT meet my expectations (concept is nice though and perhaps in 2 years they'll be there). $5000 would be a lot of money to me, regardless of buying a TV, Chair or Software.
BUT IT WOULD solve a problem for me.. And thus TO ME - it would be well worth the money. When asked if I'd really think its worth that much, i'd go yeahhh. And in the heat of the moment I would probably think
about adding "TO ME"

Let me suggest that it is not "to me" that you are saying, but really "to everyone". If you really thought that only you and no one else in the entire world believed that the price was worth it, you would not buy it.

By saying 'to me' there is an inferred nuance saying that it is not a hard belief. It is not a strongly held belief. It is saying, I am right, but everyone else is also right. I do not believe that that thought can truly exist, as long as situations and mitigating factors are removed - everything being equal, it cannot exist.

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by Max Gutnik

This is a very entertaining thread. Thanks for the good read. I love the part about intrinsic value, as if supply and demand did not dictate the value of everything.

Where did you infer that from? You are trying to make a specious argument.

Supply and Demand does dictate value. However you have to understand what propels supply, and what propels demand. That is perception.

[Max Gutnik]

Originally Posted by Benoni

Where did you infer that from? You are trying to make a specious argument.

Supply and Demand does dictate value. However you have to understand what propels supply, and what propels demand. That is perception.

Customers do not determine a product's "intrinsic value". The intrinsic value of a product is determined by the process of making the product and the costs associated with said process. In other words, only the supplier can determine the intrinsic value and this value has nothing to do with what a customer thinks a loaf of bread is worth in the grocery store.

The "perceived value" that you refer to, is determined by the laws of supply and demand. Individual customer perceptions are only a small part of this equation, but lets not take this thread any further off topic.

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by Max Gutnik

Customers do not determine a product's "intrinsic value". The intrinsic value of a product is determined by the process of making the product and the costs associated with said process. In other words, only the supplier can determine the intrinsic value and this value has nothing to do with what a customer thinks a loaf of bread is worth in the grocery store.

The "perceived value" that you refer to, is determined by the laws of supply and demand. Individual customer perceptions are only a small part of this equation, but lets not take this thread any further off topic.

And this is where we disagree. And I think you mis-understand my use of "intrinsic" I am not referring to actual parts, but the value perceived as a whole.

If customers do not perceive intrinsic value in the product (not the actual parts), and what it does as a whole, the supply does not matter, because there is no demand.

The Law of supply and demand is an abstract theory. Not some magical rule. It is all explainable in rational terms.

You seem to be saying that the manufacture on its own can determine how much a product is worth. It is true they can price it, but that is not worth.

Worth is determined by the consumer, not the supplier. If there is no perceived value, there is no sale.

I guess that is where we part ways. But I would like to discuss it further if you wish. I love technical, abstract debates.

[propower]

Originally Posted by Max Gutnik

Pro Tools HD has a much smaller, much more finite TAM.

We know how many people historically upgrade their HD software. We know historically how many people upgrade their hardware. We also saw the impact of opening Pro Tools software and learned a lot about what that means.

Supply and demand ultimately determine value. Avid has a percieved value for the things we make, and either the market agrees and buys it or not.

We hope that professionals that use Pro Tools to make a living who.... etc

My interpretation of this reads like this...........
1) Impact of PT9 open had serious hit on HD user base........
2) The HD user base is now mostly made up of people earning a living from using ProTools
3) This market is now considerably smaller and closer to a true Niche market
4) New prices are about what it takes to be as profitable as possible in a niche market.
5) Market forces will have the final say

Sad as I like to admit WRT to my $$, this makes some sense to me. HD has always been more expensive...... maybe 2X - updates, plugs, etc....... The systems are still relatively the same price in my mind........ but keeping software up to date is now in a new price range (3X of non-HD)........ only time will tell how well this works.............