Just learned another new, expensive lesson

[Pred80r]

Recently recorded some really great guitar tracks using a name brand guitar EFX processor stereo line outputs. The sound we heard while tracking was full, unique and incredibly easy to dial in so we were all excited about mixing these cool sounding guitars with the rest of the tracks and hearing some cool stuff. When it came time to final mix the guitars were not only kind of muddy but they seemed to detract from the other performances, specifically the bass and keyboards.

I spent months going back to this track while working on the other tracks, trying to get something that sounded anywhere NEAR what we heard in tracking. High pass, notching, verb, dynamics...whatever I could throw at this track I did...nothing did more than a minor improvement.

Want to know what was killing this mix? It is so basic and unbelievable it is painful. I am still researching to see if their are known incompatibilities between digidesign and this gtr efx company because this should NEVER be the case when recording LINE outputs...



The L and R of the stereo gtr efx were out of phase and canceling each other, mostly canceling out the highs and high mids of the stereo guitar tracks but also seemingly canceling out the other tracks frequencies in that range. Taking the punch out of the bass, all the edge off of the keys, dulling down my kick and snare...the whole thing is just incredible. I am still shaking my head about the simplicity of the problem.

[Craig F]

Originally Posted by Pred80r

The L and R of the stereo gtr efx were out of phase and canceling each other,

typical of most efx processors

[studiojimi]

i'm wondering if this was the new VOX guitar processor


supposedly ....."everybody's usin' it"

i used it recently in "mono" mode

that's how i got roped into to and away from using my marshall or my fender amps which i enjoying micing and moving some air

the compression on this stuff is what carves itself into an unmanipulative state

and as you said...sounds pretty cool when you are dialing in the sound

and it's powerful sounding and different that "my" go to gear

so i thought to myself..."change is good"

huh

not so sure

i'm not to the mix stage but i do see how unmanipulative the tracks are

you get kinda "stuck" and get work around with normal go to procedures.

[crizdee]

Originally Posted by Pred80r

The L and R of the stereo gtr efx were out of phase and canceling each other, mostly canceling out the highs and high mids of the stereo guitar tracks but also seemingly canceling out the other tracks frequencies in that range. Taking the punch out of the bass, all the edge off of the keys, dulling down my kick and snare...the whole thing is just incredible. I am still shaking my head about the simplicity of the problem.

Hi,

I'm a bit fuzzy on how the other elements in the mix were effected by the guitars being out of phase!!

Chris

[midnightrambler]

I always record straight DI guitar in addition to any other processing (including real amps). Bit late for you now I know......

[John_Toolbox]

Always, always, when tracking guitar or bass, track a mono track directly from the guitar's output through a DI in addition to your mics and processed line outs. Even if the line outs were not phased, you can still use this track to thicken up the sound by processing it with something else. So many guitar players tend to use settings that may sound cool to them, but simply don't work in the mix.

It's actually really funny when you play back a mix where you only used the processed DI track. The guitar player is usually like, "wow... how did I get such a cool sound out of my amp?"

No need to tell them it wasn't their amp!

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by John_Toolbox

Always, always, when tracking guitar or bass, track a mono track directly from the guitar's output through a DI in addition to your mics and processed line outs. Even if the line outs were not phased, you can still use this track to thicken up the sound by processing it with something else. So many guitar players tend to use settings that may sound cool to them, but simply don't work in the mix.

It's actually really funny when you play back a mix where you only used the processed DI track. The guitar player is usually like, "wow... how did I get such a cool sound out of my amp?"

No need to tell them it wasn't their amp!

Haha! Not just me that does that then! Mum's the word!

[John_Toolbox]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

Haha! Not just me that does that then! Mum's the word!

When I track myself playing I usually don't even bother with mics and amps anymore. I've gotten very good at getting a better sound from a DI track.

The other trick is to make a few passes of the same part, and switch pickups on the guitar each time. Blending these together gets a nice fat sound.

[woodsdenis]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

I always record straight DI guitar in addition to any other processing (including real amps). Bit late for you now I know......

Always do it too. A lifesaver on many occasions.

[Pred80r]

Originally Posted by crizdee

Hi,

I'm a bit fuzzy on how the other elements in the mix were effected by the guitars being out of phase!!

Chris

Thank you...I am also a bit fuzzy on how this is possible so I was hoping someone who has experienced something like this could shed some light. All my logical and deductive reasoning can muster is that the frequencies where the most "cancellation" was occurring were somehow muddied up by the conflict in final mix?...?..?

Now that I figured it out however, the difference between the mixes is really night and day and fairly obvious to any ear...almost sounds like I know what I am doing as opposed to floundering in the muck.

BTW the Guitar FX unit in question is a Pine 6 Lod