Some Basic Film Sound Questions

[dBHEAD]

I'm a college professor in the broadcasting department at a midwestern university. This Fall I'll be doing a movie and recording the production dialogue into Pro Tools.

I should probably first clarify that I have recorded sound and picture separately before, but it was for musical performances, not a movie. I know how to sync things up. I should probably also clarify that I've done movie projects before as well, so I know how to put a movie together. This will be the first time I've recorded dialogue separately, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on the equipment available to me.

The following is equipment I actually own:
a DIGI 002
an Apogee Rosetta 96 A/D
Rupert Neve Portico
Sennheiser Wireless lavalier

The following is equipment that would be available to me any time:
Sony ECM66 lavaliers (as many as I want)
Sennheiser MCE66 shotguns (basically as many as I want)
a couple of Audio-Technica wireless systems (open XLR input)
FMR Really Nice Pres (two of them/4channels)

The following is equipment that would be available on a limited basis:
Apogee Rosetta 800
Vintech 473 (4 preamps)
Millenia HD3 (4 preamps)
This equipment is in the racks in our recording studio, but it would probably be available if reserved in advance.

The movie has a cast of 4, and nobody else is even seen for the entire duration. It will be about 30 minutes.

The first question is, basically, what would you use?

Question 2 is whether there's something I really should invest in that would make a difference. Like a Sennheiser MKH416 or another shotgun. I don't doubt it would make a difference, but is it that big of a difference. I would probably have to pick up the tab myself, at least in the short term.

Also, perhaps comment on my current plan:

I was going to use my 002, Rosetta 96 and Portico for the audio from 2 bodypack wireless lavaliers (ECM 60s into the Audio-Technica transmitter) and shift them around depending on the shot and who was talking. Then I was also going to have 2 Sennheiser MCE66 shotguns being recorded into the camera for backup and/or enhancement.

Now, I CAN get the more expensive stuff, have more channels, etc. But in your opinion is it worth the wait and/or having to schedule around it

BTW, I tested an ECM66-->Portico-->Apogee-->002 today, and then ECM66-->Camera preamp. There was an obvious difference. The camera pre was clearly thinner, cheaper sounding and for some reason seemed to pick up more background noise.

[Reckless Erik]

Please don't use the camera, except perhaps as a guide mix for the editors. You will regret it!!
Get hold of a multi channel recorder (more interface channels for your PT rig or a dedicated hard disk recorder 4/8 track). A combination of boom and lavs should prove flexible and will cover most situations.
The professional PSMs should chime in if I have been misleading. Good luck

[Postman]

Are you shooting in a controlled set or elsewhere? Who would be handling the boom mic? Superb boom handling with good mechanical setup (isolation, windsock if needed, experience, etc.), makes all the difference between a useable boom track and a disheartening one. I'm inclined to say, unless you're pretty sure the boom will be managed well in a situation that allows good boom work, don't spend a lot of money on another mic for it. Instead, spend for better lavs. Are two wireless channels enough for 4 actors?

Trust me, a boom that weaves/bobs around and/or has handling noises (wind, bumps, thumps, rattles) will cause all kinds of problems later on that totally negate the best microphone.

Yeah, double system for sure. Plug the mix into the camera for easy reference but it probably won't sound good.

[O.G. Killa]

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/744t.htm

or similar.

Recording directly into protools can be a pain in the butt for production sound for various reasons.

Forget Vintech and Neve stuff, etc. They are all way to noisy. The Millennia might work.If you need it. But the recorder should have built in preamps and line inputs for you to use.

Be especially vigilant about levels (don't record too hot or two quiet), don't record with any limiter or AGC on either as it messes with the room tone levels.

[Frank Kruse]

Where to start....

In short: There are some essential parts missing:

- A boom operator.
-1 or better two booms to actually put the mic where the action is.
-Suspension mounts and wind protection (unless this is all interior)
-The ECM66 is a rather huge lav. Can be quite difficult to hide under clothing. Try to get Sanken COS-11 or other usual suspects used for fim shoots rather than news casts where the mic can be out in the lime light.
- You will need a very good analog limiter (actually one for every individual mic-in). If those are the only frontends available to you use whatever mic pre has a good, fast limiters. You will need the limiter before signal hits the DAC. Limiting in PT won´t help avoid analog clipping.

-avoid any equipment that needs mains power, unless this is a controlled studio shoot.

take a dedicated location machine with you instead of setting up a huge and heavy line of high-end studio pre-amps. Will save you a huge amount of cable jam, powering issues, weight and portability issues etc.

Don´t mess with lavs if you can boom. A good boom-op putting the mic in the right place at the right time will gain better result than ANY better pre-amp out there you could get a hold of. Of course a good pre is good to have but I´d rather shoot with a good boom-op and a mediocre pre and mic than vice versa.

You don´t need even more expensive stuff but the RIGHT stuff for a location shoot. Instead of unmounting those studio pres and dragging them out on set, renting a 744 or 788 will get you the 002, preamps, limiters, recording computer, powering all on the same ticket at the size of half a shoe box that can even operate hanging around your neck.

[dBHEAD]

Thanks for the responses. My original plan was to use the shotguns into the camera as backup and guide track for the sound editor for syncing. But after reading the responses I'm starting to lean toward ditching the lavs and going with booms for the main sound. My crew will consist of students -- but smart, interested students. I could train a couple of them to be, I think, excellent boom operators.

The Sound Devices recorder looks perfect, but probably a bit too pricey for me personally. However, that's the sort of thing I can make a request for. It gets on a list and I can probably get it within two years, although now that I look at their stuff I'd probably go for the 788T. Rental is a possibility.

To answer other questions, about the first third of the script is outside, but it's all in the same location and the characters don't move around much. It seems to be in a remote wooded area, though the location is actually a strip of land about 200 feet wide and a mile long that runs through campus. We have access to A/C power less than 300 feet away. The rest is indoors, mostly in a living room. The only scenes not there are in a bedroom and kitchen of the same house.

Please keep the advice coming. I'm like a sponge right now, soaking up everything I can learn. Two additional questions. One, are there any good web sites for film production audio/post? What do you think of the Tascam stuff, like the HS-4000 or HS-P82?

[Craig F]

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Televisi...3773910&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Digital-Video-Tomlinson-Holman/dp/0240807200/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313773973&sr=8-4

[dBHEAD]

Originally Posted by Craig F

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Televisi...3773910&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Digital-Video-Tomlinson-Holman/dp/0240807200/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313773973&sr=8-4

I got both of them. Thank you.

[MIKEROPHONICS]

My recommendation would be to hire a pro boom op - make's a huge difference and they are not expensive compared to what you will save in post time.

In my years 'down the BBC salt mines' I was constantly reminded of how good some boom ops are/were. These guys have a hand on your fader - so to speak. It is the biggest pitfall to give the boom to someone inexperienced.

My talents lay else where..,

Amen

[Postman]

I'm not convinced a boom is the best option for exterior audio in the middle of a busy college campus. Ya gotta have some lavs in there too. Be ready to do some ADR.