MTRX Studio, DVS, and Dolby Renderer on a fully native system?

[shawnhonsberger]

Hi Everyone,

I am returning to the Avid world for the first time since 2005, so please excuse my ignorance. :) I'm too used to Core Audio and Logic Pro these days, but am returning to Pro Tools Ultimate for its excellent Dolby Atmos support.

I am looking for some clarity from anyone who is an expert in DADman and the Dolby Renderer. I just purchased my MTRX Studio and got everything installed. I previously used Pro Tools with the Dolby Renderer via Aux I/O back into Pro Tools on a fully native Mac system. However, now that I have DADman I am needing guidance on transitioning my monitoring environment to DADman before going back into Pro Tools (and the I/O setup). The online videos are helpful, but none of them address my exact setup.

While I wait on my MTRX Thunderbolt 3 card to arrive, I currently have a fully native system (without HDX or HD Native or HD Native Thunderbolt) using Dante Virtual Soundcard. I get sound and system sound into DVS and into DADman (e.g. Apple Music 7.1.4 via DVS), but I am struggling to patch and interrogate DADman’s monitor profiles in the correct way - either with the default profiles (9.1.6 DAMS) or custom profiles (9.1.6 custom). I currently use the Dolby Renderer and Pro Tools on the same Mac.

Any guidance anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated. Jeff Kumar’s videos are very extremely helpful in helping me contextually understand DADman in a multi-system HDX setup, but it becomes really fuzzy for me when it’s all contained in my one system without HDX. So I’m a little lost, to say the least.

Prior to purchasing my MTRX Studio, I used the Apollo Twin X Quad as my Playback Engine and Aux I/O to get in and out of the Dolby Renderer, then monitored the Renderer's 5.1, BIN, and ST re-renders back in Pro Tools. I would like to replace the Apollo with the MTRX Studio in this case. Temporarily, with DVS, and with the TB3 option card once it arrives.

Ultimately, I'd like to get audio from TB3 to DADman and Pro Tools, to the Dolby Renderer, and back into DADman for monitoring at least, and back into Pro Tools for monitoring and printing.

I have not yet dug into changing my Pro Tools I/O Setup, as I wanted to get it flowing in DADman properly first.

I have read the MTRX Studio installation and operation guides, watched every YouTube video I can find on the subject from Avid and others, reviewed the MTRX Studio Resource PDF, and read many threads on this forum prior to joining it today.

However, I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around this, given that all I currently have is DVS and not the TB3 card, which is on its way. I've attached screen shots from Dante Controller and my DADman patches.

Be safe and well,

Shawn Honsberger
Argyle Street on Apple Music

System Details:

• iMac M1 macOS 13.3.1(a)
• Pro Tools Ultimate 2023.3
• Dolby Atmos Renderer 5.0
• Avid Pro Tools MTRX Studio (firmware 1.1.5.3)
• DADman 5.6.5.1
• APOLLO-TWIN-X-QUAD
• UAD-2-SATELLITE-TB3-OCTO
• UAD-2-SATELLITE-TB3-OCTO
• UAD Ultimate 10.2.3
• Logic Pro X 10.7.7

[shawnhonsberger]

Hi Everyone,

In the process I think that I maybe might have figured it out! First, I enabled and patched a 64x64 matrix in Dante Controller. Then, I updated my Monitor Profile with the correct inputs and outputs to and from Dante. I had to re-do my DADman dms and dmprof to 9.1.4 anyway to match my speaker setup. Then, I updated my room setup channels and channels for my re-renders (5.1 loudness, BIN, and ST) in the Dolby Renderer and switched the output to DVS. Then, I cross patched the re-render inputs of DADman into Dante inputs for Pro Tools. Then, I updated my I/O Setup Aux I/O with Input paths for the re-renders. Then I made sure that Apple Music and system audio come in after all this in DVS via Audio Midi Setup, then it all worked!

[shawnhonsberger]

Additional screen shots of success.

[RobertDorn]

Hi! I’m just mixing on the stereo side of things, but since the Dolby atmos renderer does up to 128 channels and the MTRX studio + TB card does only 64 channels of Thunderbolt and 64 channels of Dante, the first thing that came to mind here is: did you just purchase your MTRX studio and can you still return it?

I ask this since you don’t need / use the digilink connectors. That’s the first and only reason to look at a MTRX studio or modular MTRX.
If you look on the DAD side of things, there’s an AX Center, which has 256 channels of TB connection ( AND 256 channels of Dante) available natively//pre-installed in the unit , giving you the option to route your entire patching through TB alone if you want. (Moreover: the AX Center does AD and DA conversion in the league of the big MTRX and AX64 boxes, while costing less than a MTRX Studio)

[shawnhonsberger]

Thanks for your reply, Robert! The AX Center is great but it does not have 16 analog outputs to go out to my 14 speaker 9.1.4 setup (at least not built in), so the MTRX Studio is actually the perfect fit for me. Great conversion, great preamps, and great output built in.

When you run the Dolby Atmos Renderer on the same Mac as Pro Tools like I do and use the Dolby Audio Bridge as your Playback Engine in Pro Tools, Pro Tools actually gives you 130 channels (128+LTC), and does not limit you to 64 channels - which is lovely! At any rate, I create and use Object Beds of my 9.1.4 system - which allows me to have Bed on 1-10, Object Beds on Objects 11-28, and anything I want to pan independently from my 9.1.4 Object Beds, I can use Objects 29-64 with Aux I/O. However, I could switch from Aux I/O to DAB if I need all 128 channels.

At any rate, the AX Center looks nice if you need to go out 128 channels to an external Dolby RMU. While I wish I would've known about it, it seems that adding the additional 8 analog outputs would make it more expensive than the MTRX Studio.

Thanks, again!

[originalscottyg]

Are you doing music or post in Atmos? I ask this because I've found the Aux IO workflow for post to be a bit troublesome with sync to video, with its varying latency, and rubbery sync (IMO)

If tight sync to video/lip sync isn't a big concern for you, I would suggest using DVS (and later TB3) as the playback engine in Pro Tools and using Dolby Audio Bridge and PT Audio Bridge via Aux IO to and from the renderer, respectively. Send your renderer monitor outputs and re-renders back to Pro Tools via PTAB/Aux IO and setup the correct monitoring outputs in Pro Tools IO Setup to your main playback engine outputs (DVS, then later TB3). Then set up your monitor sources in DADman coming from your Pro Tools playback engine.

Does that make sense? I am hoping I'm describing this clearly.

[shawnhonsberger]

Hi Scott, thanks for the reply! No, I am only doing music.

Absolutely! Once I figured out what I had done wrong, I did essentially as you described with DVS, and I'll just replace it with TB3 in the MTRX Studio asap. The only difference is that currently, the Renderer's output is going straight to DADman via DVS, and then from DADman to Pro Tools via Aux I/O inputs.

I think once I have the TB3 module, it will be more straightforward to me to feed DADman from the MTRX Studio TB3 Pro Tools Playback Engine as you say, rather than straight from the Renderer. Do I understand your suggestion correctly?

That patching will make more sense to me mentally, rather than the current circular logic I have going now haha. Then I can remove DVS from the equation, apart from system audio playback.

Thank you!

[Tone_Mechanic]

Hi Shawn,

I have a very similar setup as you. I'm using DVS to connect to the MTRX STUDIO without an HDX or HD Native card. Waiting for the Thunderbolt 3 card to be available. DVS is overall pretty great, but I'm hoping the TB3 card is more stable.

A couple things I've learned using this setup which might be useful for you.

1) AUX I/O is great, but as in Avid's literature, I find it to be a bit unstable, as ORIGINALSCOTTYG said. Depending on what devices you have added to the Aux I/O, the latency can vary by as much as 1 or 2 frame (40-80ms). It gets much worse if you add a bluetooth speaker.

I did a bunch of tests regarding latency and discovered a few things.

Currently I am running the Dolby Audio Bridge as an Aux I/O device. Because the timecode feed from Pro Tools to the Renderer goes along the same path as the audio feeding the Renderer, it maintains sample accurate sync when printing to the Atmos Renderer.

Re-Renders coming back from the Renderer have varying latency though. Sometimes it varies from pass to pass, so it can't really be compensated for.

With that in mind, I would suggest either printing your deliverables as an offline export from Pro Tools, or if you print into the Atmos Renderer, then export the Re-Renders after punching in on the Atmos Master. I do have the 5.1 and Stereo Re-Renders routed to the MTRX for monitoring purposes.

2) I found it very helpful to not overlap outputs, so I can choose my monitoring sources on the MTRX STUDIO. This makes it really easy to work in Stereo, 5.1 or Atmos, and compare the different versions (since I often work on Stereo or 5.1 only projects, and then sometimes expand them to Atmos later.

The outputs I have setup are:

Pro Tools Stereo Output
Pro Tools 5.1 Output
Pro Tools 7.1.2 Output (this isn't proving to be very useful).

Dolby Renderer 9.1.4 Output
Binaural Headphone Output
5.1 Re-Render
2.0 Re-Render

I hope that's helpful

[shawnhonsberger]

Originally Posted by originalscottyg

Are you doing music or post in Atmos? I ask this because I've found the Aux IO workflow for post to be a bit troublesome with sync to video, with its varying latency, and rubbery sync (IMO)

If tight sync to video/lip sync isn't a big concern for you, I would suggest using DVS (and later TB3) as the playback engine in Pro Tools and using Dolby Audio Bridge and PT Audio Bridge via Aux IO to and from the renderer, respectively. Send your renderer monitor outputs and re-renders back to Pro Tools via PTAB/Aux IO and setup the correct monitoring outputs in Pro Tools IO Setup to your main playback engine outputs (DVS, then later TB3). Then set up your monitor sources in DADman coming from your Pro Tools playback engine.

Does that make sense? I am hoping I'm describing this clearly.

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your reply! Apologies, I posted a reply on 5/12, but it might still be held up in moderation. It won't seem to post, oh well.

Anyway, I believe that is essentially what I set it up for initially. The only exception is that I'm going to Dadman directly from the Renderer, and then to Pro Tools. Is it better to go back to Pro Tools first before Dadman? Does that add latency?

Thanks,

Shawn

[shawnhonsberger]

Originally Posted by Tone_Mechanic

Hi Shawn,

I have a very similar setup as you. I'm using DVS to connect to the MTRX STUDIO without an HDX or HD Native card. Waiting for the Thunderbolt 3 card to be available. DVS is overall pretty great, but I'm hoping the TB3 card is more stable.

A couple things I've learned using this setup which might be useful for you.

1) AUX I/O is great, but as in Avid's literature, I find it to be a bit unstable, as ORIGINALSCOTTYG said. Depending on what devices you have added to the Aux I/O, the latency can vary by as much as 1 or 2 frame (40-80ms). It gets much worse if you add a bluetooth speaker.

I did a bunch of tests regarding latency and discovered a few things.

Currently I am running the Dolby Audio Bridge as an Aux I/O device. Because the timecode feed from Pro Tools to the Renderer goes along the same path as the audio feeding the Renderer, it maintains sample accurate sync when printing to the Atmos Renderer.

Re-Renders coming back from the Renderer have varying latency though. Sometimes it varies from pass to pass, so it can't really be compensated for.

With that in mind, I would suggest either printing your deliverables as an offline export from Pro Tools, or if you print into the Atmos Renderer, then export the Re-Renders after punching in on the Atmos Master. I do have the 5.1 and Stereo Re-Renders routed to the MTRX for monitoring purposes.

2) I found it very helpful to not overlap outputs, so I can choose my monitoring sources on the MTRX STUDIO. This makes it really easy to work in Stereo, 5.1 or Atmos, and compare the different versions (since I often work on Stereo or 5.1 only projects, and then sometimes expand them to Atmos later.

The outputs I have setup are:

Pro Tools Stereo Output
Pro Tools 5.1 Output
Pro Tools 7.1.2 Output (this isn't proving to be very useful).

Dolby Renderer 9.1.4 Output
Binaural Headphone Output
5.1 Re-Render
2.0 Re-Render

I hope that's helpful

Hi Tone Mechanic,

Thanks for your reply! Yes, that makes sense! I believe I am doing it almost the same way. The only difference is that I'm going to Dadman directly from the Renderer, and then to Pro Tools, rather than the other way around. Is it better the other way? Does it add much latency? Thanks for your suggestions!

Thanks,

Shawn