This is why I don't mix on Laptops/Native

[JFreak]

DSP is not a must anywhere, it just gives you some peace of mind as in things not falling apart when you are live. Possible problems arise during sound check.

[off the wall]

As I said, I’ve got an M1 Pro laptop here waiting for a) PT to actually work on Monterey and b) an eventual ARM native PT. This will likely be by main home system when the 5,1 HDX system is no longer useful. But for now, it’s SUPER solid and never bogs down.

At the NYC studio, we will likely continue with HDX systems for the foreseeable future. When we can finally get 20 or more people in a room again and not fear getting someone sick, we will be recording orchestral sessions again.

[JCBigler]

Originally Posted by albee1952

Hmmm, DSP "a must" for tracking? For an orchestra, sure. But for the average rock/pop/country production, nope.

Why would an orchestra require DSP to track any more than a rock band would?

I've been recording orchestras for years without DSP, using straight native and/or HD Native without problems. Most recently I've been doing redundant recording using HD Native to one computer and vanilla to another linked through the Satellite Link. Last few have been about 40 channels and I haven't had any issues with either computer.

When I go back out on tour, things may be a bit different as I'll need a different hardware solution to get my ~110 channels into Protools. Or really I'll probably just be recording to some other DAW since I don't want to carry my HD Native rack on tour with me. I'll need some sort of MADI solution, since I'll be running a Digico console and at 96k also.

[ekmaster23]

Originally Posted by off the wall

Pro Tools Ultimate, HDX, UAD Octo PCI.

100 tracks of a live rock band, real drums, guitars, keys, massed vocals, etc... A decent amount of plugs and verbs, and my 11 year old Mac Pro 5,1 isn't even breaking a sweat while mixing.

Check out that CPU usage in the screenshot.

When Avid gets it together with Monterey, I'll see how my M1 Pro MBP compares.

I guess I don't entirely understand the point you're making here. The 2019 and newer MBP 16" are at least 20% more powerful than the most powerful Mac Pro's pre cheese grater revamp.

I regularly work on sessions in pro tools with well over 100 tracks with extensive routing, fx, and tons of plugins. I rarely run into CPU issues and when I do, I can freeze the track in seconds due to the built in storage and the high processor speed. I also know a fair amount of mixers who also have no issues on a laptop setup with no DSP.

That being said the laptop does become throttled, but the new M1 Max I have is over twice as powerful as the top of the line old Mac Pro's and no fans at all, and on part with the current 12 core mac pro (3500 MBP vs 7000 MP). That's even WITH running through a compatibility layer.

HDX, UAD, and non portable workstations all cost substantially more than an all in one MacBook setup.

Since the PT update came out with entry level Monterey support I've been working with a lot of Dolby Atmos and let me tell you. These new MacBooks are on another level above the 2019 16". I'd get lag's, overloads, etc, when doing high caliber Atmos mixing. But on the new MacBook? Forget about it. No issues at all. Its also a 9 year newer machine.

But at the end of they day, everyone is allowed to work on whatever they want as long as their happy with the results. All I'd say is that the current generation of Apple products are going to be amazing. Just wait till the new Mac Pro's come out with M1 or M2 or whatever its going to be. Be prepared to say bye bye DSP forever! (If you want of course!)

[audiolex1]

Originally Posted by JFreak

I love DSP on live gigs


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you not think the M1/2 chips will eliminate the latency? I mean wasn't that always the argument that the processing couldn't handle the latency so you needed DSP to off load the power?

Seems like it might come to an end with 48, 64 and 128 cores.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by audiolex1

Do you not think the M1/2 chips will eliminate the latency? I mean wasn't that always the argument that the processing couldn't handle the latency so you needed DSP to off load the power?

Seems like it might come to an end with 48, 64 and 128 cores.

Hi, welcome to the community.

There is always latency, you cannot avoid it. Typical TDM session takes 350 samples of processing in addition to AD/DA latency, byt because it is predictable it is considered fast.

[audiolex1]

Originally Posted by ekmaster23

I guess I don't entirely understand the point you're making here. The 2019 and newer MBP 16" are at least 20% more powerful than the most powerful Mac Pro's pre cheese grater revamp.

I regularly work on sessions in pro tools with well over 100 tracks with extensive routing, fx, and tons of plugins. I rarely run into CPU issues and when I do, I can freeze the track in seconds due to the built in storage and the high processor speed. I also know a fair amount of mixers who also have no issues on a laptop setup with no DSP.

That being said the laptop does become throttled, but the new M1 Max I have is over twice as powerful as the top of the line old Mac Pro's and no fans at all, and on part with the current 12 core mac pro (3500 MBP vs 7000 MP). That's even WITH running through a compatibility layer.

HDX, UAD, and non portable workstations all cost substantially more than an all in one MacBook setup.

Since the PT update came out with entry level Monterey support I've been working with a lot of Dolby Atmos and let me tell you. These new MacBooks are on another level above the 2019 16". I'd get lag's, overloads, etc, when doing high caliber Atmos mixing. But on the new MacBook? Forget about it. No issues at all. Its also a 9 year newer machine.

But at the end of they day, everyone is allowed to work on whatever they want as long as their happy with the results. All I'd say is that the current generation of Apple products are going to be amazing. Just wait till the new Mac Pro's come out with M1 or M2 or whatever its going to be. Be prepared to say bye bye DSP forever! (If you want of course!)

The point he is making is that he has great success with an older 5,1 that isn't in his face and isn't breaking a sweat.
I'll have to agree being similar in systems.

I started looking into dropping 16k into the newer Mac Pro and the one thing that stopped me was the GPU. Great, I can use my TB ports for my monitors. Why can't they just be on my GPU. I have 5 now.

I think you might be talking more mixing verses tracking. Mixing now at 1024, it really doesn't matter that much.
I mean I've loaded some what of 1000 plugins 6dverbs per channel and more before I got my 5,1 to even break down.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think his point was the 5,1 is still a beast and can still handle complex, heavy track count mixes as much as the new ones.
I was tracking 88.2 on mine 8 years ago and it was fine.

It is still a workhorse today. I can go another 5 years with it while waiting for the Apple Silicon Mac Pro.
By then, software will be native, 48-128 cores and DSP won't even matter at that point.
Latency will be limited to the device and throughput.

It will be as seamless as analog but people will still argue about the sound. LOL

[audiolex1]

Originally Posted by JFreak

Hi, welcome to the community.

There is always latency, you cannot avoid it. Typical TDM session takes 350 samples of processing in addition to AD/DA latency, byt because it is predictable it is considered fast.

Yes, but noticeable latency. I mean with DSP at the front end it was to take processing off the host.

Now with thunderbolt and Carbon, Dante, isn't the host dealing with the latency? I mean why spend 5k on a front end interface if it wasn't the connection?

What is the lowest latency on an AVID HDX vs a Carbon? Or Dante?
Ethernet was always the answer it just took this long.

[JFreak]

Originally Posted by audiolex1

Yes, but noticeable latency. I mean with DSP at the front end it was to take processing off the host.

Now with thunderbolt and Carbon, Dante, isn't the host dealing with the latency? I mean why spend 5k on a front end interface if it wasn't the connection?

What is the lowest latency on an AVID HDX vs a Carbon? Or Dante?
Ethernet was always the answer it just took this long.

Lowest latency is when you only have AD/DA roundtrip and all your plugin processing is on DSP. Even then, the more DSP you use the latency builds up.

On native systems you are defining latency as playback buffer and whatever your host can or cannot do within that time is okay. If the buffer is exceeded, playback/recording stops with a nasty error.

So I find it stupid to reach for 32/64 sample latency as "the blazing fast DSP" sessions typically have 350 samples of latency. That is kind of the limit of noticeable latency. I can for example monitor myself with 256 sample buffer, but not with 512 buffer (at 48kHz).

Noticeable latency means you start hearing echoes. Some claim they hear comb filtering even at 64 sample buffer but I have never heard that. PT default used to be 128 and everyone was fine with it.

But I also know a guitarist who thinks his sound gets better by using a red cable instead of black. Who knows.

[off the wall]

Originally Posted by audiolex1

the point he is making is that he has great success with an older 5,1 that isn't in his face and isn't breaking a sweat.
I'll have to agree being similar in systems.

I started looking into dropping 16k into the newer mac pro and the one thing that stopped me was the gpu. Great, i can use my tb ports for my monitors. Why can't they just be on my gpu. I have 5 now.

I think you might be talking more mixing verses tracking. Mixing now at 1024, it really doesn't matter that much.
I mean i've loaded some what of 1000 plugins 6dverbs per channel and more before i got my 5,1 to even break down.

Maybe i am wrong, but i think his point was the 5,1 is still a beast and can still handle complex, heavy track count mixes as much as the new ones.
I was tracking 88.2 on mine 8 years ago and it was fine.

It is still a workhorse today. I can go another 5 years with it while waiting for the apple silicon mac pro.
By then, software will be native, 48-128 cores and dsp won't even matter at that point.
Latency will be limited to the device and throughput.

It will be as seamless as analog but people will still argue about the sound. Lol

^^^ this ^^^