Protools 8 New look, old look! Discussion

[Bob Olhsson]

FWIW I was a PT1.0 user and among the first 100 digidesign customers. I was in the middle of a big production project so I installed PT-8 on a second system drive for new projects while staying in 7.4 for my older project.

At first I didn't like the PT8 interface at all. (I'm NOT a composer...) I think virtual knobs are stupid and I was especially unhappy about not being able to see as many tracks in the mix window. After a month of working with both systems every day, I found myself dreading the PT7.4 interface despite the things I clearly didn't like about it. I couldn't even figure out why this was but I was happy to switch at that point.

For me PT8 was definitely an acquired taste but I can honestly say I'm working far more relaxed with the PT8 interface and this comes crashing home every time I work elsewhere with 7.4.

Something else is that different monitors definitely favor different interfaces. When I switched to LCDs from CRTs, it also came crashing home that developers really need to check that their interface translates to different monitors.

[relaxo]

Look you guys, I'm just being real. Digi needed new families in their gated old-money neighborhood because it needs repairs and new landscaping. To attract the new families, some of the polo grounds need to get covered over by baseball diamonds. Change through growth is inevitable, let's just hope that the baseball diamonds can double as polo grounds without making the polo grounds unusable, dig?

Like it or not, Pro Tools needs the Logic crowd onboard and asap and the Logic crowd need the added features (cluttering) and the new look. We all have to live together now for SURVIVAL'S sake...if you don't believe that it is a matter of survival, I don't think you're in touch with the DAW market right now. Digidesign is the community board figuring out integration of old with new. Some in here are the old-way protesters. Let's give this integration a chance...Digi has never failed us on the grand stage.

[Roulette Records]

Originally Posted by relaxo

To step back, this battle is happening on three levels:

THOSE WITH GOOD EYESIGHT VS. THOSE WITH POOR EYESIGHT

Winner: old Pro Tools
In this case, those with good eyesight need to step down. I think the overall look of the PT8 GUI is fantastic but that it has tons of finer adjustments that need to be made with lettering, contrast line thicknesses etc. We need to do whatever possible to make sure people with bad eyesight really suffer no more using Pro Tools. I think we can resolve most of the eyesight issues with the GUI tweaks and if still needed, a little lightening can even be tolerated. THESE EYESIGHT ISSUES MUST BE FIXED ASAP.

THE COMPOSERS VS THE SURGEONS

(For the sake of speed, I'll re-quote myself, like everybody does in here anyway...)
"As a composer, I enjoy the vibey feeling of working in PT8 so much more now that it doesn't look like Filemaker on a Mac Plus c.1989, like pre-8 PT. It's more akin to being in front of a Neve, SSL, API, MCI 500 etc etc console, the absolutely ergonomically correct color direction for me, making me more creative already. I'm really not exaggerating. With the new tools, improvements and vibe I'm really feeling great working in PT8. I'm really surprised it has had such an instantaneous and empowering affect on me motivationally and creatively. I don't have to sit in front of a sterile while app anymore like an office worker using Excel. For me, as a whole, nothing at all needs lightening on anything that I've found so far. A bit darker would be ok, but not much more than that. It's just right for me with the new slider.

Audio surgeons:
That all said, maybe your job is looking closely at the waveforms, which is a very small part of my day. High contrast and brightness are good when you're doing precision surgery, but not creating music. And some of your jobs may be actually closer to editing Word or Excel documents all day than to be creative and composing. Personally, in that case, ***even I would not want a grey Word or Excel document***"

The solution:
We will need a darkness/lightness slider that says "Creative Mode" to the left and "Surgery Mode" to the right." But seriously, let's hope this can be remedied with the forthcoming major tweaks Digi has promised and we don't have to go back to the PT7.4 look very much at all.

NEW SKOOL VS OLD SCHOOL AESTHETICS

Taste:
This is where the old schoolers need to step down. Honestly, you had your day for 18 years or really, 25. The look of pre-PT8 really is 100% derivative of early 1980's Mac programs and although there have been some "modernizations" in from PT4 to PT7, it's overall look remained the same. Personally, I've always hated that look for composing, but I get that some of you either love that look or feel comfortable with the familiar or both. I work in a world of 40 or so PT pros and I've yet to hear "I don't like the new look." Therefor I know that "people like PT7 look more" is an old wive's tale. One guy, who is the type that always reaches for the same mic for the same thing and ONLY uses Focusrite D2s and D3s, says he's afraid of PT8 and goes back to the old 7.4 drive. The PT8 GUI dysfunctions will be fixed so then the new vs old look battle will be just a battle of personal tastes. You say PT8 looks like a video game I say it looks like and old Neve console. You say it has "too many buttons" - MANY OF THOSE NEW "BUTTONS AND CLUTTER" ARE FEATURES NEEDED BY COMPOSERS WHO HAVE NOW BEEN INVITED TO THE PT CLUB ***AFTER 15 YEARS OF REJECTION AND 15 YEARS OF DASHED HOPES, OF EVIL KENEVIL-GRADE PAIN*** It's new school's turn.

Sales:
Digi did careful marketing before going with the new look and determined it is preferred by non-PT users as well as PT users and will boost sales. With all of the money struggles Digi is having now, we all should applaud this move and wish them the best. "What is good for Digi is good for us PT lovers." I don't like at all the fact that Windows development takes away from Mac development in any way and I have yet to meet ***a single one*** of these supposed "PT Windows" people, but Windows development is a necessary evil to sell to those in the "fly-over states," necessary to get Microsoft investment and necessary to hedge against historically dastardly Steve Jobs power moves against those in bed with Apple.

VERY good post Relaxo.. Actually exactly what I said in the very early parts of this thread, but I referred to it as "Classic" skin, "Modern" skin, etc.. To me there should be about 15 choices... More than color, it would be a entire "snap back/recall" mode to a certain complete layouts of the past. Why not I say ? Should be easy code to write in. Choose "7.4" mode and you get the entire look/layout of 7.4, etc...

I say on the important level I agree with 100% of your post. On the "naming"/"labeling" level I have a little disagreement. But that does not really matter.

See for me, and again I must state it really don't matter, I am and always have been a composer, NOT a techno surgeon. SO I think you have your labeling backwards- BUT just my opinion. See composers do NOT want a million buttons and features.. They are more about vibing like you said and vibing in my opinion means less features, more using your soul. Composing and vibing is 88 keys, strings, drum sets, etc, and very little Pro Tooling,, just basically use PT as your tape, thats all a composer needs.. On the other side, you need more TOOLS to be a surgeon, tools = buttons and features.. Get my point ?

Not like its a big deal, but I feel your post is 100% right, but I hope they don't call it "Composer Mode" and "Surgeon Mode" in your descriptions anyway because they are backwards IN MY OPINION... BUT Since it is just a opinion, they should stick more to "Classic Mode" - "Modern Mode" just to be safe and we need not argue about that little point..

Eye sight, Some of you have it wrong -- I actually have 20/20 and I am 30 years old. And I don't have problems seeing things in PT if I look, BUT I don't like having to "look" for things. Its not like it used to be is all I am saying. So it is NOT a old person eye sight thing, it is some peoples opinions that it simply is TOO CRAMPED feeling and turning into a McDonalds cash register... (Press the "sound good" button Bobby) - LOL, they aint for me. I like making things sound good organically. I always liked just using PT as a replacement to tape. Because I am more of a composer than a surgeon. Not using PT as a replacement of my life -

About the "O.G.'s had our day" being/looking organic is over. That is obviously opinionated, and I see your point.. But only a real organic conversation can answer that, so I will leave that alone. OTHER than saying this one sentence: "Things should ONLY move forward/take over if they truly prove they are better" -- I am not saying things haven't or have, just saying is all. Thats why the old school stayed for as many years as you said and KEEPS coming back... It is so rock solid when we invent something and new styles, etc.. in 3 weeks we realize it's crap, then we steal back from the 70's and call it new again !! ... ALWAYS...HA - its classically hilarious. Hell I ain't even from the 70's, but I just can't believe how their stuff lasts TIMELESS compared to everything we seem to do now a days from cars to music to GEAR to clothes to dancing, etc. I HAVE to respect that era because what ever they did they seemed to put hard rock solid QUALITY above anything else. They said forget efficiency, forget weight, forget looks, lets just make it LAST FOREVER... and that is tried and proven. PT8 looks and operates exactly the OPPOSITE of that. Can we say PLASTIC ?

About it making YOU feel like its a Neve or SSL console... Well I own a SSL console, and worked on Neves.. And I feel exactly the opposite. Thats what I always said by organic... Older PT looked more/had more of a Console vibe to me, and I know cause I use and own consoles. The new PT8 is exactly the opposite vibe of a real console... What console IT DOES feel and look more like is a Digi plastic iCon console... = crap..
So with that too I feel you got it backwards and to re look and re analyze it with what I said in mind.. Go stand in front of ALL 3 consoles, then look at PT8 again, and then look at PT 6 again... Please, do it, then get back to me.
Plastic does not equal Metal. Florissant green energy can drink does not equal 1980's rock solid console (Neve/SSL), but it DOES equal iCon breakable crap. Seriously, go look again with all that in mind, you will see. Thats not a opinion.

EITHER way, GREAT post Relaxo.. And we are all on the same page, LITERALLY !! lol --

[relaxo]

I did a study for someone a few months ago and still had the files.

Here are the major DAWs, side-by-side.

You editors should maybe consider moving to Wavelab 4, apparently designed on the North Pole. (Ouch, just kidding)

[Roulette Records]

Originally Posted by relaxo

I did a study for someone a few months ago and still had the files.

Here are the major DAWs, side-by-side.

You editors should maybe consider moving to Wavelab 4, apparently designed on the North Pole. (Ouch, just kidding)

Hey, GREAT comparisons relaxo. God, Logic, Neuindo, Ableton and Wavelab look like VOMIT... WOW !!

I think the picture of PT8 vs 6 is unfair though. the angle makes for a unfair comparison.

[MoritzRock]

Originally Posted by relaxo

Hmmm, wonder why rainy Britain prefers Logic and the Cure?

Hate logic! But i sometimes use it...
Love the cure, and i sometimes listen to them

what's rain and the cure got to do with anything??

[Roulette Records]

Originally Posted by relaxo

Pro Tools does not only belong to engineers anymore.

It never did IMO. And thank god. I aint a engineer only and definitely didn't start out that way. So it was always great for us Producers/Composers and Artists like me.

It caused me though to then be able to engineer my own stuff to, which is great. Hence I grew into what I do now. Point is, is it always has been great. But if I have to sacrifice features for stability I WILL. Dig ?

And they NEVER iron out the bugs, because when they release a version that does fix them bugs, they are so stupid they ALSO add yet even more features on that release that causes MORE stability issues... HA HA... its horrible.

My advice to Digi is,,, Man, there is ENOUGH features right now for a very long time. Just spend the next 3 solid non-cs releases ironing out ALL bugs and improving rock solid stability and add NO FEATURES for them releases.

Then fire SEVERAL staff (I was there at the VIP conference PT8 party, and you have too many non needed workers), keep your overhead extremely low BUT by NOT sacrificing any quality research to such. If by cutting your staff down it becomes like a "speciality item" like Aurora, Forssell, or NPNG gear, where we need to wait for a week or so to get our ordered DAW - then so be it... That would be exciting anyway.. it always is (look at Playstation and XBox releases)... THEN you can make great stuff, with out needing so much money to pay young kids to stand around doing nothing riding your jock thinking everything you do is so great.

I live 4 blocks from your building here in San Francisco/Daly City... The thing is too big for what you need. Downsize, and just make great stuff like you used to... LOW OVERHEAD + Great Product = Selling enough to keep you happy WITH OUT needing to compete with the childrens DAW market.

[relaxo]

OT-

Ok, as a composer, which slows you down more, PT8 GUI ergonomics or bouncing RTAS tracks so frequently?

Me? By a million miles, bouncing VIs. Freeeeeeze track pleeeeeease!!!!!!! No matter how good RTAS may become, Freeze Track, by a million miles, is my PT wish #1.

[Roulette Records]

Originally Posted by relaxo

Ok, as a composer, which slows you down more, PT8 GUI ergonomics or bouncing RTAS tracks so frequently?

Me? By a million miles, bouncing VIs. Freeeeeeze track pleeeeeease!!!!!!! No matter how good RTAS may become, Freeze Track, by a million miles, is my PT wish #1.

I don't "bounce RTAS tracks" - SO I can't tell you. Also, just to ME personally, because I panic about quality, I do not trust the idea and general operation of "Freeze Track" - sounds like a low quality something happened to my file maybe issue... I leave things like that for children's programs.

Another thing that is KILLING the planet is everyone trying to save so much time always. WTF are you in such a hurry to do ? When you are in a hurry, quality suffers all the time. Period. This has been my "McDonalds cash register" metaphor if you never understood it. One button that does things quickly is KILLING human mental. Now your impatient, and are one of them "instant gratification" dudes.... Not for me brother. I like taking my time, and doing things the sure route. I mean dude, how many minutes are you saving anyway ? Couldn't be more than 10-15 minutes max per song by doing that,, BIG DEAL. If you are trippin on 15 minutes, then sir, we do not communicate well. Also, if you claim it would save you hours, then sir, you use WAY too many VI's then !! LOL -- I would suggest using only one to 2 VI tracks MAX per song, and try to find the real deals for the rest.. Up tha game brother, stay organic, it sounds more lush and better anyway. Then freeze track, will become, well, less of a big saving time deal.. 10 minutes or so max. So big deal.

I play all my keyboard licks (and weird sound effects) LIKE A COMPOSER on vintage synths NOT VI's. Got several of them. ALL original. ALL kept top notch serviced by techs. ALL mint condition. Prophet 5 rev.2 ! , R.A. MiniMoog !! very early serial number once owned by Joe Walsh, OBXa, OB1, Multimoog, Matrix 12 with output expansion, Rolands, Yamaha's, ETC....

So for me, I don't bounce RTAS tracks, OR use Freeze Track, and if I did use a VI, I definitely would just take the time to Bounce the track manually to guarantee quality, unless someone could prove to me Freeze Track was truly all good quality wise by BOTH ears and tech specs.

Just my opinion and approaches though. I know yours are different.

Sounds like you are more of a surgeon than a composer bro.

EITHER way, I like the Freeze Track option though for you guys that use it, and I am glad it is there to make you guys happy. That particular feature does not get in the way or clutter up the interface IMO. So I am truly happy for you and that feature.

[Howardk]

Off Topic

Originally Posted by Roulette Records

everyone trying to save so much time always. WTF are you in such a hurry to do ? When you are in a hurry, quality suffers all the time. Period.

I don't agree with this point. All we are is time and energy. Since time is finite, using time to complete automatable/repeatable tasks is waste. This time could be spent on things that require a personal touch to improve quality. So I would say saving time thru improved methods/processes improves quality.

Many of us believe the approach to print VIs could be much improved in ProTools, but I would certainly put fixing the GUI, Bug Fixes and RTAS rebuild a lot higher on the list than adding any new PT features. Hey if RTAS and VIs worked flawlessly we would not need to print VIs as frequently.